Incident or reflected

[venchka]

I can't be the only person who often takes "incident" readings by TTL metering off my palm, in similar light to the subject ? Just add 1/2 a stop, or whatever value you have previously worked out using a dual-purpose meter. It is very, very fast and reliable (assuming you have two hands of course).

All the usual stuff about your location/lighting vs that of the subject, and the reflectance of the subject needs to be considered too naturally - but often your palm is very handy (sorry, couldn't resist it).

Nope. You aren't alone. I do it. I need to dig out my 18% grey card and refresh my memory as to what my palm does relative to the 18% grey card. Thanks for reminding me.

 

[colyn]

Example: you're shooting on a big city street at between noon and two PM. That means open bright light and deep shadows (caused by the shadows from the buildings), using an incident meter what and where do you meter? You'll need at least two readings to determine the range, unless your subject will always be in one type of light.

This is the type of situation where I prefer reflected light and average the readings.

I generally trust the averaging ability of a reflective meter, because I can see what is driving the meter (e.g., a bright wall, a large dark area), especially with an in-camera meter—if I don't have an in-camera meter, I go incident. Based on the reflective reading and what I see driving it, I'll adjust the f-stop (or not).

🙂

I generally use incident when the lighting is pretty much even and reflected when there is a fairly big difference between light and dark as in your example above.

 

[MartinP]

Raypa: " . . . Actually, that would be a reflective reading, and no you're not the only one that uses that technique. It's very handy (pun intended). . . "

With the method I described one is measuring the light (which varies) reflected from a consistent surface (your hand) so, after the correction offset, it is analogous to using an 18% grey card and a hand-held reflective-meter. This is a well known way of measuring incident light without needing an incident-meter and is, of course, the reason you can buy 18% grey cards.

In reply to rvaubel, as I live in the Netherlands I carry my palm tree on a trailer hooked to the back of my bicycle. The main problem is the dogs - if you are not careful they use it as a toilet and this makes light measurement a very smelly task....

 

[ChrisN]

Nope. You aren't alone. I do it. I need to dig out my 18% grey card and refresh my memory as to what my palm does relative to the 18% grey card. Thanks for reminding me.

Interesting thought! I just measured mine; my palm is one stop brighter than a grey card.

And, to extend the discussion, what about the role of spot metering?

 

[Richard Black]

Glad you brought up spot metering. I don't use it for "walkin' around" but do for a lot of the other meterless work, and in some cases metered work. I like spot meters. In the discussion above, when I'm in doubt which method would be best I measure the incident reading and then the reflective one and split the difference. Most films have at least that wide of lattitude, not talking about slide film, little experience here.

 

[David Murphy]

If you are just starting out I'd recommend learning to guess the correct exposure using good judgement, the Sunny-16 rule, and the instructions that come with the film (or manufacturers data). Anyone can set exposure well enough in daylight settings with a bit of experience. You will need this skill if you are going to interpret incident readings as well (they can be all over the map).

Use a *good* incident meter to verify your best guess -- to teach you really. Reflected metering is more involved -- has many pitfalls, but you can learn it in time. The Sekonic Studio meters are best for incident metering (IMO!)

 

[colyn]

Interesting thought! I just measured mine; my palm is one stop brighter than a grey card.

My experience has been that your palm measures approx 36% reflectance instead of the 18% of a gray card.

And, to extend the discussion, what about the role of spot metering?

Love it...however my Pentax spotmeter bit the dust and I haven't gotten around to having QLM repair it..

 

[existrandom]

most of the time i use guesstimate, at more critical occasion i use incident meter as reference for fine tune, i tend to add one or two EV over the meter reading

 

[BrianShaw]

Interesting thought! I just measured mine; my palm is one stop brighter than a grey card.

I believe this is quite common for Caucasian palms.

 

[clintock]

If I use a plain piece of white paper, about 90% reflectance, instead of a grey card, how many stops more open should things be? I'm thinking 3?
A two pack of grey cards costs about 9 dollars, and after my GAS attack, I am busted. Really the reason I don't want to carry a calibrated grey card is
it's just one more thing to forget, but I can always find a sheet of paper and for black and white, no need for the calibrated grey for color matching..

 

[FrankS]

Just look around for something with medium refectance (any colour), you don't have to take anything with you, not even a piece of white paper, and certainly not Kodak medium greycards!

 

[FrankS]

Let me put it in another way: I applaud your instinct for keeping things simple. Finding a piece of white paper certainly is easier than carrying a commercially available greycard. Just take that instinct a step farther to free yourself completely. Whenever you are shooting, aim your reflective meter at something of medium reflectance that is in the same light as your subject. Simple as that. If you are outside, look down at the ground and you'll see pavement or grass. Concrete may be a bit lighter (1 stop), brand new pavement a bit darker (1 stop). If you are indoors, point your meter at a midtoned something. Not that window with light streaming through it, and not that shadow behind that dark counter. Easy as pie.

 

[BrianShaw]

If I use a plain piece of white paper, about 90% reflectance, instead of a grey card, how many stops more open should things be? I'm thinking 3?

The Kodak photoguide agrees with your estimate.

 

[clintock]

Just look around for something with medium refectance (any colour), you don't have to take anything with you, not even a piece of white paper, and certainly not Kodak medium greycards!

That's what I've been doing for a while, using bark and grass, brick/stone walls etc..
Works fine, I was just trying to think of something more repeatable in case I did something right and thought to record the settings.

 

[FrankS]

That's what I've been doing for a while, using bark and grass, brick/stone walls etc..
Works fine, I was just trying to think of something more repeatable in case I did something right and thought to record the settings.

Have you been unhappy and getting inconsistant results doing what you've been doing?

 

[colyn]

I was given a GE DW-68 meter today that is suprisingly accurate (checked againest my Ranger 9 and Minolta meter). 🙂
In addition to reflected measurement it can do incident which I plan to test tomorrow.

 

[clintock]

Have you been unhappy and getting inconsistant results doing what you've been doing?

Quite happy actually, it's just that today I finally went to the camera store with an actual list, intent on getting a grey card and other things, but balked at the cost of the cards and how they were large plastic affairs that would not fit in a camera bag, much less a pocket. I then had the thought about the paper and just compensating.

It's actually quite fun looking at a big cathedral or something and thinking, hmm what should be middle grey, and finding something nearby to meter.
People think I'm nuts anway, more so when I point a 35rc at a blank wall two feet away and half push the shutter button to lock the ae.

No need to complicate things further i suppose, it's just raining (and dark) and I should be shooting!

 

[FrankS]

There is one good reason to meter off white paper: when the light is so low that your meter can't read it. Metering off a white object gives the meter 3 more stops of sensitivity (with compensation). The only issue is holding the camera still in such light.

 

[clintock]

Good point, metering off paper could give a little more usefullness to my little selenium (freshly replaced cell) gossen pilot in dim light, since it can't hang with the incident curtain on unless the sun is still shining pretty brightly.

 

[wlewisiii]

This has been an interesting thread. It's not much help to the OP, but I will say that after only using a reflected light meter, getting a Sekonic L-28C has taught me a whole heck of a lot about light and metering. It's selenium, so I don't play with it in available darkness, but having worked with it a bunch I actually have a clue of what is going on when I'm using my T-90's spot meter in seriously low light.

William