Initial thoughts of a new to me Pixii A2572+

[Godfrey]

The shutter cycle/sound issue was one of my negatives when using the Pixii: I rely upon the sound of the shutter to tell me precisely when the exposure is made. Even the synthesized sound is displaced by some fraction of a second from when the exposure was made, and those fractions matter. I find the same thing gets in the way when I'm using the Hasselblad 907x in eshutter mode ... It's hard to catch facial expressions and know "when" with an eshutter on nearly any camera I've used that has one.

Unlike Boojum's claim that 99% descry the Pixii without having touched or used one, I bought one and used it extensively for a month before returning it, hitting my gold standard of about 1500 exposures (that's the point where I feel confident to state my observations). The very poor power management (up to fully-charged three batteries consumed in a two hour photo walk), the poor visibility of the control readouts in bright sunlight, and the ambiguous nature of the shutter release (inability to say exactly when, or even if, the exposure was made) made the Pixii when I had it a non-starter.

I thought it actually a very good effort for a new camera/camera manufacturer, and it made excellent image files, but it was just too rough around the edges for my comfort. I loved the B&W raw files. So I returned it, and used the refund as part payment on a new M10 Monochrom (last one my dealer friend ever had), which does perfectly all of those things that the Pixii didn't succeed on, other than low price.

I hope that the succeeding firmware and hardware revisions to the Pixii have improved on its behaviors.

G

 

[randomphotoguy]

The shutter cycle/sound issue was one of my negatives when using the Pixii: I rely upon the sound of the shutter to tell me precisely when the exposure is made. Even the synthesized sound is displaced by some fraction of a second from when the exposure was made, and those fractions matter. I find the same thing gets in the way when I'm using the Hasselblad 907x in eshutter mode ... It's hard to catch facial expressions and know "when" with an eshutter on nearly any camera I've used that has one.

Unlike Boojum's claim that 99% descry the Pixii without having touched or used one, I bought one and used it extensively for a month before returning it, hitting my gold standard of about 1500 exposures (that's the point where I feel confident to state my observations). The very poor power management (up to fully-charged three batteries consumed in a two hour photo walk), the poor visibility of the control readouts in bright sunlight, and the ambiguous nature of the shutter release (inability to say exactly when, or even if, the exposure was made) made the Pixii when I had it a non-starter.

I thought it actually a very good effort for a new camera/camera manufacturer, and it made excellent image files, but it was just too rough around the edges for my comfort. I loved the B&W raw files. So I returned it, and used the refund as part payment on a new M10 Monochrom (last one my dealer friend ever had), which does perfectly all of those things that the Pixii didn't succeed on, other than low price.

I hope that the succeeding firmware and hardware revisions to the Pixii have improved on its behaviors.

G

That's a very fair assessment of the Pixii. There are times when I think I should have just put up the extra cash to buy another Leica M of some kind. I think they are just objectively better at this point. On the flip side though, I am really enjoying the challenge of the Pixii and am hoping that by providing feedback and some testimonial stories about its use, it will help the company and others whom might be interested

I still want an M11 though...

 

[Sonnar Brian]

The early Leica M240 had a problem with the strap lugs, was corrected.

Q&A Leica M (Type 240) Strap Lugs

Some weeks ago our member Salander opened a thread as the strap lugs of his Leica M were unscrewing.We informed Leica about this issue, but our first guess was that it was a singular case.This turned out to be wrong: Many Leica M (Type 240) delivered before April 5 2013 are affected.Leica asked u...

www.l-camera-forum.com

 

[Coldkennels]

The shutter cycle/sound issue was one of my negatives when using the Pixii: I rely upon the sound of the shutter to tell me precisely when the exposure is made. Even the synthesized sound is displaced by some fraction of a second from when the exposure was made, and those fractions matter. I find the same thing gets in the way when I'm using the Hasselblad 907x in eshutter mode ... It's hard to catch facial expressions and know "when" with an eshutter on nearly any camera I've used that has one.

I learned this through using the X-Pro 2. I knew from all the issues I have/had with using the electronic shutter mode in that camera that the Pixii in all its current iterations wouldn't work for me, but I do think that Pixii makes for a commendable "not quite a Leica" in a much better way than the X-Pro bodies do (or the earlier Epson RD-1 - which, in itself, was basically a weird quirky experiment).

I could get over all the other quirks, but I just need a mechanical shutter - and, ideally, "full frame" to keep my LTM lenses working/rendering the way they should. Simple as that.

 

[Godfrey]

I learned this through using the X-Pro 2. I knew from all the issues I have/had with using the electronic shutter mode in that camera that the Pixii in all its current iterations wouldn't work for me, but I do think that Pixii makes for a commendable "not quite a Leica" in a much better way than the X-Pro bodies do (or the earlier Epson RD-1 - which, in itself, was basically a weird quirky experiment).

I could get over all the other quirks, but I just need a mechanical shutter - and, ideally, "full frame" to keep my LTM lenses working/rendering the way they should. Simple as that.

I cannot remember which camera it is/was ... possibly my Olympus E-M1 (still have it, maybe could find this in the manual) but one of my cameras had a mechanical shutter with eshutter options. You could configure the body such that when the mechanical shutter's 'shortest exposure' limit was reached, it would then switch into eshutter mode and net you up to -4EV shorter exposure times. This seemed just about ideal to me.

Now if I could only remember which camera it was, and whether it's still in my closet... 😉

G

 

[randomphotoguy]

I cannot remember which camera it is/was ... possibly my Olympus E-M1 (still have it, maybe could find this in the manual) but one of my cameras had a mechanical shutter with eshutter options. You could configure the body such that when the mechanical shutter's 'shortest exposure' limit was reached, it would then switch into eshutter mode and net you up to -4EV shorter exposure times. This seemed just about ideal to me.

Now if I could only remember which camera it was, and whether it's still in my closet... 😉

G

If you have a Leica M10 or similar and want a new place to not be able to find it, I'll send you my address!

 

[Godfrey]

If you have a Leica M10 or similar and want a new place to not be able to find it, I'll send you my address!

You crack me up. 😀
Both my M10-M and M10-R—and the M4-2, M6TTL, and IIIc—along with lenses and other useful accessories, are right where I can grab them in a hurry. All of them get used quite a bit.

Similar for about 10-15 other cameras. But there are more cameras sequestered in a half a dozen other places around the condo that are more difficult to remember what I have and where they are because I don't use them as much at present. Like the Olympus E-1/E-M1 kit, the Hasselblad kit, the Robot, the Mamiya Press 23, the half-dozen or so Minox subminis, and so forth.

I've been using cameras for most of the past 60-some years and have accreted a quiet lode of them. 😉

G

 

[randomphotoguy]

You crack me up. 😀
Both my M10-M and M10-R—and the M4-2, M6TTL, and IIIc—along with lenses and other useful accessories, are right where I can grab them in a hurry. All of them get used quite a bit.

Similar for about 10-15 other cameras. But there are more cameras sequestered in a half a dozen other places around the condo that are more difficult to remember what I have and where they are because I don't use them as much at present. Like the Olympus E-1/E-M1 kit, the Hasselblad kit, the Robot, the Mamiya Press 23, the half-dozen or so Minox subminis, and so forth.

I've been using cameras for most of the past 60-some years and have accreted a quiet lode of them. 😉

G

Sounds like it. I've owned many cameras as well from Olympus, Panasonic, Nikon, Sony, Fuji, Leica and now Pixii. I generally tend to sell them when I move on though.

 

[boojum]

I have been following a few other camera threads and there is the problem of obsolescence. The camera you have and cherish can no longer be used because you can't get batteries or it can't be repaired. Not a problem with Pixii. Essentially it is a box with electronic guts. The guts can be upgraded. The batteries are standard Sony type available all over the world even if only by mail and the memory cards are not a problem, they do not exist. There is a permanent internal memory card. This internal memory scheme was dismissed as radical and then Hasselblad came out with it, too. I believe others have followed suit to one degree or another.

So this "silly, quirky, weird" little French camera is a well thought out photo platform. The folks who brought us the metric system, the 2CV and the TGV may just be really good engineers after all. ;o)

Oh, and it takes good pictures, too.

 

[Coldkennels]

I have been following a few other camera threads and there is the problem of obsolescence. The camera you have and cherish can no longer be used because you can't get batteries or it can't be repaired. [...] Not a problem with Pixii.

Sorry, no. The Pixii can only be upgraded and repaired for as long as Pixii (the company) exists. Will they last five years, ten? Twenty? And at what point will the parts no longer be available?

There is no such thing as "eternal support", no matter the product. And while it's entirely possible for something simple to be continually refreshed (the metaphorical Ship of Theseus... although I always preferred Trigger's Broom), the more complicated something gets, the harder that becomes.

Internal storage, for instance... what part are they using? Is that going to be as easily replaceable as an SD card is if it fails in five years' time? All solid-state devices are good for a certain amount of read/write cycles and will need replacing at some point. Can you do that if Pixii goes under?

 

[boojum]

Sorry, no. The Pixii can only be upgraded and repaired for as long as Pixii (the company) exists. Will they last five years, ten? Twenty? And at what point will the parts no longer be available?

There is no such thing as "eternal support", no matter the product. And while it's entirely possible for something simple to be continually refreshed (the metaphorical Ship of Theseus... although I always preferred Trigger's Broom), the more complicated something gets, the harder that becomes.

Internal storage, for instance... what part are they using? Is that going to be as easily replaceable as an SD card is if it fails in five years' time? All solid-state devices are good for a certain amount of read/write cycles and will need replacing at some point. Can you do that if Pixii goes under?

So, lets be real, who's going to fix that M-10 or M-11 other than the Blackstone Camera Company? We are all pretty much wed to the manufacturer for serious repairs. I have an M-9 with the factory replaced sensor and circuit board. Who else does it? Let's skip the classical allusions, this is a red herring. ;o) That X2D I so adore is not going to be fixed for some major problem by any local tech, no, no, no. We are all wed to the manufacturers. The Sony A7M II I had went back to a Sony repair station. It seems more prudent to me to trust the folks who build them to repair them. As always, YMMV.

 

[Coldkennels]

So, lets be real, who's going to fix that M-10 or M-11 other than the Blackstone Camera Company? We are all pretty much wed to the manufacturer for serious repairs.

That is precisely my point.

There is no escaping the fact that all digital cameras will end up on the scrapheap for one reason or another eventually. Repair of a modern digital camera is far beyond the means of the amateur repairman - and even far beyond the average third-party repair company once the parts support dries up. The Pixii will be obsolete and unrepairable eventually - possibly sooner than the Leicas or the Hasselblads of the world just because the company might not stick around for a long time (what happened to Lytro, another upstart camera manufacturer with a USP?), and there's likely to be less demand for third-party repair solutions due to the smaller userbase (is the Epson RD-1 getting third-party support like the M9 is)?

This isn't a red herring. It's the cold, wet fish of reality. Pixii's "endless upgrade path" is noble and commendable, but it lasts as long as the company does - and as long as their suppliers continue to manufacture the parts they need. That was the eventual death knell for M9 support, after all.

 

[boojum]

That is precisely my point.

There is no escaping the fact that all digital cameras will end up on the scrapheap for one reason or another eventually. Repair of a modern digital camera is far beyond the means of the amateur repairman - and even far beyond the average third-party repair company once the parts support dries up. The Pixii will be obsolete and unrepairable eventually - possibly sooner than the Leicas or the Hasselblads of the world just because the company might not stick around for a long time (what happened to Lytro, another upstart camera manufacturer with a USP?), and there's likely to be less demand for third-party repair solutions due to the smaller userbase (is the Epson RD-1 getting third-party support like the M9 is)?

This isn't a red herring. It's the cold, wet fish of reality. Pixii's "endless upgrade path" is noble and commendable, but it lasts as long as the company does - and as long as their suppliers continue to manufacture the parts they need. That was the eventual death knell for M9 support, after all.

Are you believing that the mechanical analog(u)es are repairable? That parts are on shelves? That if you send that IIIa to Leica you will get if fixed from a major problem? Let's get real here. And first of all, how much do folks use the old analog(u)es? Not much. There's a lot of talk about them but how much shooting is done? Film is almost as hard to get as Leica batteries.

I cannot understand touting mechanicals. It is digital now. The vast majority of the market is digital for a reason. It's not a fluke. Digitals have better dynamic range, better ISO, less grain, better micro-contrast and in many cases better color. It's 2025. The time, effort and expense of the analog(u)es does not interest many. There is a reason.

Repair. The factory or the trash heap. You have been betting against Pixii since it came out of the gate. It struggles but goes forward. But so far you have been wrong and Pixii has been right. I hope it can get a sufficient forward speed to take off. I like mine. It takes good pictures. I have the new rangefinder and full frame sensor paid for, I just have to send it off. It has not yet failed and I have had it for over three years now. I like it. I am still puzzled why people who do not have a Pixii complain about it. I can guess but that is all.

 

[Coldkennels]

I am still puzzled why people who do not have a Pixii complain about it. I can guess but that is all.

Boojum, I'm not complaining about the Pixii here - I'm solely addressing this line in one of your posts:

The camera you have and cherish can no longer be used because you can't get batteries or it can't be repaired. Not a problem with Pixii.

This isn't true. That's the point I'm making. Like I said, I think the fact they allow one previously-bought camera to be upgraded to the new spec instead of insisting on purchasing a new camera - the way Leica did in the 1930s, ironically! - is commendable. But, as I pointed out, this only lasts as long as Pixii exists and their suppliers will provide the parts.

That last part is important: in today's world, everything is so specialised that no company makes every component within their product. That's why Trump's tariffs - again, a throwback to the 1930s - are such a poorly-thought out plan. Whether it's rare earth materials from China, chips from Taiwan, or glass from Germany (note: I actually have no idea where makes the world's best optical glass any more!), every country and company are at the mercy of every other. All it takes is the last supplier of part/component/material X to say "nah, not worth it to us" and the whole thing comes falling down.

I actually just saw this in my industry; there are three major factories in the US supplying a good 75-80% of the industry with a widely used component. Two of the factories consolidated (well, one bought out the other)... then stopped making that component available to anyone. They decided it just wasn't worth their time. Everyone had to go begging to factories in China... then the tariffs hit. Oops.

Anyway, slight deviation. But as for this:

Are you believing that the mechanical analog(u)es are repairable? That parts are on shelves? That if you send that IIIa to Leica you will get if fixed from a major problem?

Yes, I do believe this. Because they are. I know, because my Leica IIIg went away to be repaired, had a whole new pair of shutter curtains made from scratch, then returned running as it was in the 1950s. I didn't send it to Leica, though. Old cameras aren't at the mercy of manufacturers, and that's kinda the point I'm making and that you don't seem to be getting.

As I've said before, machining gears, replacing shutters, even replacing springs is all possible if you have the tools and are determined enough. Making a new sensor? Much harder.

The long-term pain point for film cameras will be the film. It's much easier to make film than it is to make sensors, but it's still far beyond the average person. But if we reach an absurd and presumably far-away point where the entire photographic industry disappears - film and digital! - it'll be far easier to make images with wet plate collodion in a 1800s large format camera than it will be to get any digital body running. That's almost certainly not going to happen in either of our lifetimes, but it makes for an interesting thought experiment.

Regardless of how you feel about "analogue processes", I'm 99% certain that they'll be around for the rest of time in one form or another - even if it's just one cranky old man painting liquid emulsion onto the walls in a camera obscura.

 

[boojum]

Boojum, I'm not complaining about the Pixii here - I'm solely addressing this line in one of your posts:


This isn't true. That's the point I'm making. Like I said, I think the fact they allow one previously-bought camera to be upgraded to the new spec instead of insisting on purchasing a new camera - the way Leica did in the 1930s, ironically! - is commendable. But, as I pointed out, this only lasts as long as Pixii exists and their suppliers will provide the parts.

That last part is important: in today's world, everything is so specialised that no company makes every component within their product. That's why Trump's tariffs - again, a throwback to the 1930s - are such a poorly-thought out plan. Whether it's rare earth materials from China, chips from Taiwan, or glass from Germany (note: I actually have no idea where makes the world's best optical glass any more!), every country and company are at the mercy of every other. All it takes is the last supplier of part/component/material X to say "nah, not worth it to us" and the whole thing comes falling down.

I actually just saw this in my industry; there are three major factories in the US supplying a good 75-80% of the industry with a widely used component. Two of the factories consolidated (well, one bought out the other)... then stopped making that component available to anyone. They decided it just wasn't worth their time. Everyone had to go begging to factories in China... then the tariffs hit. Oops.

Anyway, slight deviation. But as for this:



Yes, I do believe this. Because they are. I know, because my Leica IIIg went away to be repaired, had a whole new pair of shutter curtains made from scratch, then returned running as it was in the 1950s. I didn't send it to Leica, though. Old cameras aren't at the mercy of manufacturers, and that's kinda the point I'm making and that you don't seem to be getting.

As I've said before, machining gears, replacing shutters, even replacing springs is all possible if you have the tools and are determined enough. Making a new sensor? Much harder.

The long-term pain point for film cameras will be the film. It's much easier to make film than it is to make sensors, but it's still far beyond the average person. But if we reach an absurd and presumably far-away point where the entire photographic industry disappears - film and digital! - it'll be far easier to make images with wet plate collodion in a 1800s large format camera than it will be to get any digital body running. That's almost certainly not going to happen in either of our lifetimes, but it makes for an interesting thought experiment.

Regardless of how you feel about "analogue processes", I'm 99% certain that they'll be around for the rest of time in one form or another - even if it's just one cranky old man painting liquid emulsion onto the walls in a camera obscura.

I am not against analog(u)e. I have a sweet old Contax II that went to Oleg at OKVintageCamera to be resuscitated. This works so long as Oleg or those like him have the parts. The chances of folks making some minuscule but necessary part for Contax II or an old IIIg or whatever are getting slimmer and slimmer. We are living on borrowed time. And when they are done it is digital or nothing. As for film being easier to make than sensors, maybe not. You have only one sensor to make. Film is endless, and then the chemicals. And the sensors are better than film and getting better all the time. Just for getting through airport scanners digital is better. It is not a fluke that digital is popular.

 

[randomphotoguy]

One aspect I haven't seen for parts for old film cameras is how a 3d scanner and 3d printers could be of help. A buddy has a side business where he will take his 3d scanner tool, scan old car/motorcycle parts and then 3d print them out of whatever material for parts that can't be found easily. As this technology evolves, I could see that being very beneficial to being able to keep old film cameras running.
On the digital side of things, I don't think you could ever truly get away from relying on a manufacturer for some things. What I do like about Pixii is that it seems like they are not using custom fabbed chips, but a generic 64-bit SOC that they then layer code on top of. This alone doesn't mean a customer can just swap chips as only Pixii has access to the code needed to run the camera. If they ever would go out of business, they could potentially open source it and let people experiment. The most difficult part to get would be the sensor, as I think even Pixii basically had to have an industry insider get them access to the manufacturer. Way too early to tell what will happen in the future with this stuff though.

All that being said... here is the latest picture my Pixii has taken that I like. The cat took his spot by our big window the dog normally lays and people watches. The 105lb dog is terrified of the 8lb cat and won't get any closer.

 

[Leon C]

Film is almost as hard to get as Leica batteries.

Where do you live, in a cave, I can still pick film up from my local chemist, a 10 mins drive away.

 

[boojum]

Where do you live, in a cave, I can still pick film up from my local chemist, a 10 mins drive away.

Yes you can, now. It was dicey not too long ago and threads here about buying up expired stock. There is a resurgence, yes, but I suspect it is also a dying gasp. LLL is getting into the film business and there are PRC film manufacturers. PRC builds a lot of bicycles, too. That does not mean bicycles are coming back to replace BMW's in China. Or anywhere.

If I were buying stock and had to choose whether Ilford film or Sony camera had a brighter future, well, you get the point.

 

[joe bosak]

Life is short, make hay while the sun shines, we can never know how long anything will last but there's no need to burn bridges before we have to.

 

[Godfrey]

Forever and eternity are too long a timescale for the human imagination. Never mind a camera...

G