Innovative cameras unrecognised ?

[flavio81]

Pentax: cf. Gamma Duflex and indeed Praktina. Also, the Pentax had dual shutter dials. The Nikon F wins for the prototype modern SLR.

Hi Roger,

Take a look at this:
http://www.klassik-cameras.de/SLR_History.html

The 1957 Asahi Pentax sets the layout for most other SLRs to follow. Check out the position of the speed dial, shutter button, advance lever of the previous cameras and then for the subsequent cameras. Nikon F is 1959.

Mamiya Auto XTL: What did it have that others didn't?

https://www.cameraquest.com/mamyaxtl.htm

Electro Spotmatic: No, the first auto-exposure TTL SLR was the Contarex Super BC, about 8 years earlier. Pentax and their fanboys have claimed a LOT of innovations as their own, despite their being borrowed from elsewhere. Cf. ttl metering and even pentaprisms.

I said "electronic" auto exposure. You are correct that there were many AE cameras before the Electro Spotmatic.

PS: I'm not a Pentax fanboy. If anything, i'm a Canon fanboy. The only Pentax product i own is one Takumar lens (!)

Right behind you on Praktina and Exakta, and although you're dead right about OTF metering, it was technically pretty dubious: film reflectivity varies more than seems reasonable.

Mr. Maitani of Olympus said they tested many films and found the reflectivity was more or less the same. Although he may not be correct...

AFAIK the OM-2 meters off the funny pattern that is printed on the shutter curtain. It only meters from the film surface if you're using flash.

In any case i did not like the OM-2 too much. Despite having the super innovative SPC OTF metering, the metering you see on the viewfinder is done by a traditional centerweighted meter implemented using two old-school, slow CdS cells. Which have a different color response than the SPC cells that do the metering on the actual shooting...

It's a quite convoluted way of doing metering.

 

[Roger Hicks]

That said, patents for the OM-2 OTF metering were allegedly licensed from Minolta, Pentax, Leitz and Pentacon - the idea obviously had a long history and many fathers (none of whom were convinced enough to build it into a production model)...

Thanks: I didn't know that. I am not surprised, though. First patents for a motor drive TTL SLR with a pentaprism and an instant return mirror? Wrayflex. You know that, but many won't. You also know full well that having an idea is one thing; making it work is another thing; making it work in the hands of Joe Public is a third thing; making it commercially is a fourth thing; and making a commercial success of it, after all that, is a fifth thing.

Those unfamiliar with the Wrayflex should read https://sites.google.com/site/cameraclassics/the-wrayflex-in-detail

Cheers,

R.

 

[mpaniagua]

Hi Roger,



AFAIK the OM-2 meters off the funny pattern that is printed on the shutter curtain. It only meters from the film surface if you're using flash.

I could be wrong but I think it meters from the film, because measuring is done on real time, so to speak. If light condition change on exposure, the meter react on this change and alter exposure based on this change. If suddenly there is less light, it increases exposure; if suddenly there is more light, it decreases it. This lead me to think it measured from film

Regards.

 

[Roger Hicks]

Hi Roger,

Take a look at this:
http://www.klassik-cameras.de/SLR_History.html

The 1957 Asahi Pentax sets the layout for most other SLRs to follow. Check out the position of the speed dial, shutter button, advance lever of the previous cameras and then for the subsequent cameras. Nikon F is 1959.

I said "electronic" auto exposure. You are correct that there were many AE cameras before the Electro Spotmatic.

PS: I'm not a Pentax fanboy. If anything, i'm a Canon fanboy. The only Pentax product i own is one Takumar lens (!)

Mr. Maitani of Olympus said they tested many films and found the reflectivity was more or less the same. Although he may not be correct...

AFAIK the OM-2 meters off the funny pattern that is printed on the shutter curtain. It only meters from the film surface if you're using flash.

In any case i did not like the OM-2 too much. Despite having the super innovative SPC OTF metering, the metering you see on the viewfinder is done by a traditional centerweighted meter implemented using two old-school, slow CdS cells. Which have a different color response than the SPC cells that do the metering on the actual shooting...

It's a quite convoluted way of doing metering.

Pentax: twin dials. That's why I'd say that the Pentax was the last old-fashioned SLR before the Nikon F set the pattern for modern SLRs two years later.

Yes, there were many AF cameras before the Electro Spotmatic. But although you can argue about the meaning of "electronic" (presumably you meant "with an electronically controlled shutter"), it's harder to argue about "TTL" (to my mind, the important one) and "automatic exposure".

Auto XTL? What hadn't appeared elsewhere beforehand, except the (unsuccessful, viewfinder-dimming) meter, a technical dead end?

When I get around to it, I'll put a reflection densitometer on whatever films I have lying around. My suspicion is that if you read off (usually quite dark) colour slide films, where exposure is most critical, you can get away with the overexposure you get on B+W films (with attendant loss of sharpness and, except with chromogenic films, bigger grain). In other words, sure, you can get away with it, but it's a long way from an optimal solution.

In the words of Jason Schneider (whom God preserve!) "there's always some obscure Lithuanian tinsmith who's done it before". This is why I'm deeply suspicious of many claims of priority, and openly contemptuous of incorrect or overstated claims of priority; cf. sevo's comment on TTL metering.

Cheers,

R.

 

[De_Corday]

This is true, and it's impressive that they did it so right the first time, because the finished product is great.

Also the "S" camera had a wonderful, deluxe shutter and that's what you get on a Nikon F (try shooting one with the mirror locked up). Sweet.

Oh for sure! My F2's are among my favorite bodies for that very reason.

 

[Pioneer]

Pentax: cf. Gamma Duflex and indeed Praktina. Also, the Pentax had dual shutter dials. The Nikon F wins for the prototype modern SLR.
Cheers,

R.

I am afraid we will have to disagree on this one Roger.

Your fudging over the location of shutter dials seems a trifle desperate. Pentax was far ahead of Nikon on this concept and was several versions along before Nikon came up with their timeless F. A terrific camera to be certain, but nowhere near first.

Nikon also likes to claim to have the best lens compatibility over the years as well but fails to capture the crown there as well.

Enjoy the week,
Dan

EDIT - Nikon fanboys can be just as wrong as Pentax fanboys. 🙂

 

[Roger Hicks]

I am afraid we will have to disagree on this one Roger.

Your fudging over the location of shutter dials seems a trifle desperate. Pentax was far ahead of Nikon on this concept and was several versions along before Nikon came up with their timeless F. A terrific camera to be certain, but nowhere near first.

Nikon also likes to claim to have the best lens compatibility over the years as well but fails to capture the crown there as well.

Enjoy the week,
Dan

EDIT - Nikon fanboys can be just as wrong as Pentax fanboys. 🙂

Dear Dan,

Not a fudge; not desperate; and not a fanboy. The F was the first fully modern SLR with what then became the standard control layout: sorry, but twin dials are pretty primitive. So are semi-auto diaphragm Auto-Takumars: as far as I recall, Super Takumars didn't appear until 1961-62.

My first "real" camera was an SV, arguably the best camera Pentax ever made, though in my experience (I still own a couple) a lot less durable than the F. It's the nearest I can imagine to a reflex version of a Leica: I love it. I just can't, with a clear conscience, even pretend to defend the original Pentax over the F as the first fully modern SLR. Which bit of "fully modern" are you disagreeing with?

Cheers,

R.

 

[Godfrey]

Far as I'm aware, the Zeiss Contax S of 1936 was the first pentaprism-equipped 35mm SLR camera and pretty much set the mold for all the much later 35mm SLRs in terms of overall shape and control organization.

The 1959 Nikon F was the result of a half-decade long effort to produce a state of the art 35mm SLR. Regardless of all the Pentax, Practica, Exacta, and other SLR cameras that might have preceded it, and all that followed, it was the Nikon F that established the 35mm SLR camera as the primary camera type for working photographers around the world due to its ruggedness, features, versatility, and ease of repair as well as the excellent and diverse range of lenses that were produced for it.

My very early Nikon F (serial number places it as manufactured somewhere in 1960) will still fit and work perfectly with a brand-new Nikon 180mm f/2.8AF-D lens. And my 1965 Micro-Nikkor 55mm f/3.5 lens, once upgraded to an AI spec aperture ring, works perfectly with the new Nikon D750 I bought last Fall. I think that's pretty amazing lens mount compatibility. 🙂 (Of course, any of my M-mount Leica lenses fits and works well on a brand new Leica M-D as well as on a 1954 Leica M3, so Nikon is not alone in providing such excellent lens mount compatibility...)

G

 

[Huss]

Nikonos V

Nikonos V

Maybe the best street shooter there is.
Great 35mm lens, huge OVF, auto exposure (+ manual), insanely rugged and weather/waterproof.
Super quiet too, as the solid metal brick body muffles everything.

 

[mpaniagua]

I could be wrong but I think it meters from the film, because measuring is done on real time, so to speak. If light condition change on exposure, the meter react on this change and alter exposure based on this change. If suddenly there is less light, it increases exposure; if suddenly there is more light, it decreases it. This lead me to think it measured from film

Regards.

flavio81 is right. It was the OM2-n that had the exposure compensation. The OM2 used that funny pattern to do the reading.

 

[Pioneer]

Dear Dan,

Not a fudge; not desperate; and not a fanboy. The F was the first fully modern SLR with what then became the standard control layout: sorry, but twin dials are pretty primitive. So are semi-auto diaphragm Auto-Takumars: as far as I recall, Super Takumars didn't appear until 1961-62.

My first "real" camera was an SV, arguably the best camera Pentax ever made, though in my experience (I still own a couple) a lot less durable than the F. It's the nearest I can imagine to a reflex version of a Leica: I love it. I just can't, with a clear conscience, even pretend to defend the original Pentax over the F as the first fully modern SLR. Which bit of "fully modern" are you disagreeing with?

Cheers,

R.

Sorry Roger. When Nikon comes out with a new SLR in 1959 that just happens to copy everything that Pentax has already done, and then includes a single dial for both high and slow shutter speeds and an auto diaphragm, both of which Pentax also had in the 1959 S2, this does not qualify them as the first at anything. Besides, whether the shutter was controlled with one dial or two, they both use the same high speed shutter mechanism along with a low speed escapement to delay the second curtain.

I like the Pentax SV. Very nice cameras though they came along after the Nikon and the shutters seem a bit fragile. The K was a couple years ahead of the F and had a better shutter system than some of the later Pentax cameras in my opinion, at least they continue to work well 50+ years later.

 

[Sarcophilus Harrisii]

Sorry Roger. When Nikon comes out with a new SLR in 1959 that just happens to copy everything that Pentax has already done, and then includes a single dial for both high and slow shutter speeds and an auto diaphragm, both of which Pentax also had in the 1959 S2, this does not qualify them as the first at anything. Besides, whether the shutter was controlled with one dial or two, they both use the same high speed shutter mechanism along with a low speed escapement to delay the second curtain.

I like the Pentax SV. Very nice cameras though they came along after the Nikon and the shutters seem a bit fragile. The K was a couple years ahead of the F and had a better shutter system than some of the later Pentax cameras in my opinion, at least they continue to work well 50+ years later.

At the risk of being pedantic, the Contax S and D models also had a single dial for all the shutter speeds, even if they needed a switch on the rear cover to change between fast and slow speeds.

It may be arguable whether or not the speed dial is considered to rotate. The dial with the marked speeds does, of course. But it's out of reach beneath a clear window where the fingers of the photographer won't get in its way. The external setting knob used to change the speeds doesn't rotate during exposure. Given that it is not an external rotating dial, I think it deserves the benefit of the doubt. Both of those models pre-dated any similar Pentax or Nikon SLR.
Cheers,
Brett

 

[Rob-F]

Although an accessory rather than a camera, I want to nominate the Visoflex II (or perhaps the combination of Visoflex II plus Leica M3) as an innovative camera. What could be more innovative than turning a rangefinder camera into an SLR, allowing groundglass focusing of all lenses 65mm and longer?

 

[Greyscale]

Yashica Pentamatic (1959) single shutter speed dial, auto lens diaphragm (I think that it was the first camera to feature this).

 

[tunalegs]

It's a common misconception that Pentax invented the first 35mm SLR that actually looked like a 35mm SLR, but without any doubt, for those who've bothered to look into things instead of just repeating what's been said in Pentax advertising - the Edixa Komet/Reflex of 1954 was the first 35mm SLR that actually looked like a 35mm SLR. In fact, it was only the second 35mm camera (after the Leica M3, which only just beat it to market) to feature a right handed lever advance.

edixa flex by Berang Berang, on Flickr

Sure the shutter release is on the front, but this is where it should be. And it took a long time for some manufacturers to screw everything up by putting it on the top. Unlike many other SLRs which can claim one or two innovations - the Edixa was actually successful in the marketplace, at least for a few years anyway.

 

[Pioneer]

There have been a lot of very innovative slrs that have pre-dated Nikon or Pentax. Some really interesting ones are now coming out of Russia and East Germany that I have truthfully never heard of before.

On the surface it seems pretty straight forward but I think Roger is right to say that some Lithuanian or Hungarian tinsmith has probably built something back in the 30s that we have not seen yet.

I know that it was not 35mm but in my mind the plain old Kodak Brownie system was one of the most innovative photo ideas I can think of. But even that innovation depended on a lot of other innovations before it to be successful.

Nothing can stand alone so without support so to say Nikon or Pentax or anyone else was first is probably a bit bullheaded. But I do think it is fair to say that they were able to make it more reliable and more economical than what had come before.

 

[Sarcophilus Harrisii]

Yashica Pentamatic (1959) single shutter speed dial, auto lens diaphragm (I think that it was the first camera to feature this).

Well it depends on how you want to define auto aperture. When Zeiss Ikon released the first Contaflex (SLR, that is) in 1953 its reflex version of the Compur shutter featured an aperture (with ten aperture blades, initially) that stopped down to the taking f stop automatically on releasing the shutter. Not having an instant return mirror it simply didn't re-open until the camera was wound on (but with the mirror up and lens shutter closed, obviously it would have been redundant even if it did re-open hence it was not designed to do so). When later versions of the shutter were adapted to the lenses for Hasselblad's new medium format SLR, the 500C, from 1957, these operated as per the Contaflex, albeit they were fitted within the lenses as distinct from the camera body.

 

[sevo]

Although an accessory rather than a camera, I want to nominate the Visoflex II (or perhaps the combination of Visoflex II plus Leica M3) as an innovative camera. What could be more innovative than turning a rangefinder camera into an SLR, allowing groundglass focusing of all lenses 65mm and longer?

The honours would go to the pre-war original Visoflex+Leica III and Zeiss Flektoskop+Contax I - the accessory mirror box actually preceded the first 35mm SLR!

 

[sevo]

Well it depends on how you want to define auto aperture. .

The first CZJ Exakta mount lenses with a ADB ("automatische Druckblende") tab were on sale in 1954.

 

[Sarcophilus Harrisii]

The first CZJ Exakta mount lenses with a ADB ("automatische Druckblende") tab were on sale in 1954.

The first Contaflexes were definitely on the market by late 1953 so it would have just pipped the relevant lenses for the Exakta. I have a CZJ 58mm Biotar in Exakta bayonet with such a tab, I think that it is a very good lens actually.
Cheers
Brett