Innovative cameras unrecognised ?

[sevo]

Far as I'm aware, the Zeiss Contax S of 1936 was the first pentaprism-equipped 35mm SLR camera

Even though that date is sometimes mentioned online, there is no such thing as a 1936 Contax S - that year Zeiss Ikon was busy with the Contax II (rangefinder) introduction. It was not until 1938 that, alarmed by the success of Exakta and Praktiflex, Zeiss Ikon started on drafts for a SLR Contax (originally "Syntax", initially with a angled pentaprism and offset mirror to clear the vertical shutter drums of the Contax). But the war put a stop to consumer goods developments, and what they released in 1949 was a very different and more modern camera (horizontal shutter, rectangular mirror/prism arrangement), more similar to the Exakta and Praktiflex than to their pre-war drafts.

 

[radi(c)al_cam]

At the risk of being pedantic, the Contax S and D models also had a single dial for all the shutter speeds, even if they needed a switch on the rear cover to change between fast and slow speeds.

It may be arguable whether or not the speed dial is considered to rotate. The dial with the marked speeds does, of course. But it's out of reach beneath a clear window where the fingers of the photographer won't get in its way. The external setting knob used to change the speeds doesn't rotate during exposure. Given that it is not an external rotating dial, I think it deserves the benefit of the doubt. Both of those models pre-dated any similar Pentax or Nikon SLR.[…]

That's interesting, dear Brett. These East Germans were quite foxy guys!

(What a shame that the West German camera makers didn't fully cooperate with them, but of course the guys in the west couldn't bear the thought that the Commies had many good ideas which made much more sense than the whimsical Cyclops, etc. etc.)

Hm. I'd like to know: Which camera body with a full range of speeds (1/1000--1/2s, or so) was the first having a single shutter speed dial where no part of the dial does rotate when firing?

(I would have guessed: the Contax I perhaps?)

 

[sevo]

Hm. I'd like to know: Which camera body with a full range of speeds (1/1000--1/2s, or so) was the first having a single shutter speed dial where no part of the dial does rotate when firing?

(I would have guessed: the Contax I perhaps?)

The Contax I may have been the first with one knob for a full range of speeds up to 1s, but it rotated, doubled as the transport knob and, even worse, was mounted on the front next to the lens.

 

[tunalegs]

That's interesting, dear Brett. These East Germans were quite foxy guys!

(What a shame that the West German camera makers didn't fully cooperate with them, but of course the guys in the west couldn't bear the thought that the Commies had many good ideas which made much more sense than the whimsical Cyclops, etc. etc.)

Hm. I'd like to know: Which camera body with a full range of speeds (1/1000--1/2s, or so) was the first having a single shutter speed dial where no part of the dial does rotate when firing?

(I would have guessed: the Contax I perhaps?)

Well for the question, the obvious thing is to note the existence of leaf shuttered cameras.

As for the comment about West Germans, again I may point to the Edixa Reflex cameras, which are so unrecognized I guess people don't understand they have M42 screw mounts and focal plane shutters, just like the East German cameras had. When the East gave M42 automatic diaphragm operation, so did Edixa (indeed they beat Pentax to its adoption as well).

 

[radi(c)al_cam]

Well for the question, the obvious thing is to note the existence of leaf shuttered cameras.

Hence my wording:

Hm. I'd like to know: Which camera body with a full range of speeds (1/1000--1/2s, or so) was the first having a single shutter speed dial where no part of the dial does rotate when firing?

shutter speed dial, on the camera body, 1/1000s — leaf shutter cameras rarely meet all of these criteria 😉

As for the comment about West Germans, again I may point to the Edixa Reflex cameras, which are so unrecognized I guess people don't understand they have M42 screw mounts and focal plane shutters, just like the East German cameras had. When the East gave M42 automatic diaphragm operation, so did Edixa (indeed they beat Pentax to its adoption as well).

The Edixa Reflex cameras weren't really … innovative, were they? AFAIK, they were quite cheap, unfortunately also quality-wise.

But in fact, some people who were previously Edixa-Reflex-shooters, then bought a Rolleiflex SL 35, and were continuing to use their (West German) M42-lenses with the proper adapter 🙂

 

[radi(c)al_cam]

The Contax I may have been the first with one knob for a full range of speeds up to 1s, but it rotated, doubled as the transport knob and, even worse, was mounted on the front next to the lens.

Silly me. I had Contax II in my mind.

 

[tunalegs]

The Edixa Reflex cameras weren't really … innovative, were they? AFAIK, they were quite cheap, unfortunately also quality-wise.

But in fact, some people who were previously Edixa-Reflex-shooters, then bought a Rolleiflex SL 35, and were continuing to use their (West German) M42-lenses with the proper adapter 🙂

They were quite innovative actually. As I pointed out on the previous page the standard layout of the 35mm SLR originated in the Edixa Reflex - not the later 1957 Pentax which copied it. The design team was headed by Heinz Waaske, and had contributions from people who had previously worked on East German SLRs, but fled to the West. They adopted automatic aperture operation before Pentax, and adopted an instant return mirror before Praktica, Exakta, Zeiss, etc. Unfortunately after 1960 very little innovation happened due to mismanagement of the company. When the company was reorganized, the Edixa Electronica TL was released, and was again an advanced design, but poorly built, it flopped in the market and the company died a second time and for good.

 

[sevo]

Silly me. I had Contax II in my mind.

Yup. Actually, late versions of the Contax I probably will not have rotated either - there were several major upgrades to it, on the late ones the mechanism appears to be the spitting image of the II.

 

[radi(c)al_cam]

They were quite innovative actually. As I pointed out on the previous page the standard layout of the 35mm SLR originated in the Edixa Reflex - not the later 1957 Pentax which copied it.

Well, «standard» and «innovation» aren't necessarily friends … AFAIK, Exakta's advance lever (1930s I suppose?) was innovative, and if some right handed persons insist to claim ‹hey, it's on the «wrong» side!›, it actually doesn't hurt, at least if one is ambidextrous — in the European sense of that word 😉

The design team was headed by Heinz Waaske, and had contributions from people who had previously worked on East German SLRs, but fled to the West. They adopted automatic aperture operation before Pentax, […]

And I'm inclined to suppose: the East Germans weren't able to prosecute very probable patent/intellectual property infringements, since West German Courts didn't care about intellectual property of Commies…

 

[Roger Hicks]

Sorry Roger. When Nikon comes out with a new SLR in 1959 that just happens to copy everything that Pentax has already done, and then includes a single dial for both high and slow shutter speeds and an auto diaphragm, both of which Pentax also had in the 1959 S2, this does not qualify them as the first at anything. Besides, whether the shutter was controlled with one dial or two, they both use the same high speed shutter mechanism along with a low speed escapement to delay the second curtain.

I like the Pentax SV. Very nice cameras though they came along after the Nikon and the shutters seem a bit fragile. The K was a couple years ahead of the F and had a better shutter system than some of the later Pentax cameras in my opinion, at least they continue to work well 50+ years later.

Oh, dear. Add in bayonet lens mount for the F: something else that Pentax took a long time to get around to, and borrowed from (almost everyone) else. The Pentax was almost there -- but you can't really say that an "almost there" camera set the style for everything else. I mean, why not a Praktina (1952)? Put a motor drive on (I had one) and it even had an instant-return mirror.

The argument about slow speed escapements is non-existent: that's how you build a mechanical shutter, whether leaf or focal plane with blinds. The argument about the SV coming out after the F is totally irrelevant, too. If you define the F as the prototype for modern cameras, as I do, then who cares when anything after 1959 came out? I merely quoted the SV as why I really like Pentaxes, to answer your nonsensical "fanboy" accusation. Accusing anyone of being a "fanboy" is something of an insult, and you'll notice that I never said you were: I just said that Pentax and their fanboys had made a lot of unjustified claims. On that basis, it's true, you are beginning to sound like a fanboy.

The whole thing about copying is nonsensical too. Everyone copies or adapts what has gone before, often from prototypes or patents. What has Pentax ever not copied from elsewhere? And, of course, it's not cameras alone that have auto diaphragms. You need lenses too. What was the first production Super-Takumar, and when? It's your defence of the Pentax as the first fully modern SLR that is beginning to look more than a little desperate.

Cheers,

R.

 

[Roger Hicks]

The honours would go to the pre-war original Visoflex+Leica III and Zeiss Flektoskop+Contax I - the accessory mirror box actually preceded the first 35mm SLR!

Don't forget Astro, 1934, with their Tachars and PanTachars for use with the Identoscop, 1933 -- http://lhsa.org/2016/page/3/ -- which antedated both PLOOT and (as far as I know) the Flektoscop for the Contax, though I could be wrong about the latter.

Cheers,

R.

 

[Godfrey]

Even though that date is sometimes mentioned online, there is no such thing as a 1936 Contax S - that year Zeiss Ikon was busy with the Contax II (rangefinder) introduction. It was not until 1938 that, alarmed by the success of Exakta and Praktiflex, Zeiss Ikon started on drafts for a SLR Contax (originally "Syntax", initially with a angled pentaprism and offset mirror to clear the vertical shutter drums of the Contax). But the war put a stop to consumer goods developments, and what they released in 1949 was a very different and more modern camera (horizontal shutter, rectangular mirror/prism arrangement), more similar to the Exakta and Praktiflex than to their pre-war drafts.

The book on my shelve somewhere—on the history of Zeiss cameras—says otherwise. But that camera never made it to a production model, that's true.

The Nikon F is it, though, for establishing the 35mm SLR camera type as the priority choice. That is incontrovertible.

G

 

[bluesun267]

Though not a still camera, the Bolex H16 series, particularly the REX IV, gets my top honor for innovation...Beam splitter reflex prism allowing flicker-free viewing and the use of any c-mount lens; variable shutter; variable frame rates; time-exposure; single frame; in-camera backwinding, accessories galore; all in a portable, ergonomic package...and the Kern Switar lenses...enough said. Plus, no batteries! No moving picture camera (film or digital/any format) has yet to beat it. I've often wished for a still camera along these lines (something akin to a Canon Pellix with a Leica M or screw mount).

 

[Sarcophilus Harrisii]

Though not a still camera, the Bolex H16 series, particularly the REX IV, gets my top honor for innovation...Beam splitter reflex prism allowing flicker-free viewing and the use of any c-mount lens; variable shutter; variable frame rates; time-exposure; single frame; in-camera backwinding, accessories galore; all in a portable, ergonomic package...and the Kern Switar lenses...enough said. Plus, no batteries! No moving picture camera (film or digital/any format) has yet to beat it. I've often wished for a still camera along these lines (something akin to a Canon Pellix with a Leica M or screw mount).

Coincidentally a friend of mine in Manhattan is about to sell two of those which were her fathers, with a bunch of lenses. If I was into motion pictures I'd certainly want one because they're so beautiful.

 

[radi(c)al_cam]

The original Rectaflex?

The Rectaflex was a 35mm SLR camera with a focal plane shutter, interchangeable lenses and a pentaprism eye-level finder. It was the world's first SLR equipped with a pentaprism,[2] with a final presentation in April 1948, and start of series production in September the same year, thus hitting the market one year before the Contax S, presented in 1949. It also had a wide diameter bayonet mount and a Rapid Return Mirror.[1] The chief designer was Telemaco Corsi.[3]

— https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rectaflex

 

[Roger Hicks]

Though not a still camera, the Bolex H16 series, particularly the REX IV, gets my top honor for innovation...Beam splitter reflex prism allowing flicker-free viewing and the use of any c-mount lens; variable shutter; variable frame rates; time-exposure; single frame; in-camera backwinding, accessories galore; all in a portable, ergonomic package...and the Kern Switar lenses...enough said. Plus, no batteries! No moving picture camera (film or digital/any format) has yet to beat it. I've often wished for a still camera along these lines (something akin to a Canon Pellix with a Leica M or screw mount).

Indisputably true. But a lot appeared in ciné before it appeared in still cameras. The film itself, of course, but also (for example) zoom lenses in the 1920s.

Cheers,

R.

 

[kuuan]

Konica Minolta A2: https://luminous-landscape.com/konica-minolta-a2-review/

besides being the first camera with inbody stabilization ( I believe ) it is two things which imo distinguish it which a modern mirrorless cams should offer resp. what still remains unsurpassed:
1: both LCD and EVF tilting, the EVF tilting seems to have fallen out of favour but I am a stout defender of it's many advantages
2: unsurpassed handling, ease of access to settings.

In the modern, digital camera era, the Ricoh GXR system went mostly unrecognized other than by enthusiasts....
...It is still the best performer in a digital camera for the Voigtländer Color Skopar lenses (21, 25, 28, 35, and 50 mm) that I've worked with, better with those lenses than the Sony NEX or A7, Leica M9/M-P240/M-D or SL.

agreed! ( with what I did not quote too )
I once did a comparsion of performance of CV 4.5/15, 4/21 and 4/25 on Ricoh GXR M and Sony A7 in APS-C crop mode, and the GXR came out on top ( also when comparing 4.5/15 on GXR M with 4/21 on A7 in FF mode )

 

[Dralowid]

Though not a still camera, the Bolex H16 series, particularly the REX IV, gets my top honor for innovation...Beam splitter reflex prism allowing flicker-free viewing and the use of any c-mount lens; variable shutter; variable frame rates; time-exposure; single frame; in-camera backwinding, accessories galore; all in a portable, ergonomic package...and the Kern Switar lenses...enough said. Plus, no batteries! No moving picture camera (film or digital/any format) has yet to beat it. I've often wished for a still camera along these lines (something akin to a Canon Pellix with a Leica M or screw mount).

I hadn't thought of the original question in the context of cine, which I collect, particularly 8mm. Not sure where to start. As someone else has mentioned the 'creative mind' seemed freer in the cine world, both in Europe (think Beaulieu, Erscam Camex etc) and Japan (think Elmo, Arco etc) and obviously not forgetting the US.

The Elmo C300 managed to be multi format, Double 8 (ie standard 8) Super 8, Single 8 and Double Super 8. This sounds simple but it isn't.

 

[Roger Hicks]

Rectaflexes are another example of "legendary" cameras where there's often more legend than camera. They started out in 1947 with a simple pentaprism (laterally reversed image) and did not acquire a Goulier roof pentaprism (the sort used ever since on most cameras) until September 1948. The Gamma Duflex (which also had an instant-return mirror) appears to have been on sale in 1947. There's a comprehensive but very badly organized book called Rectaflex, The Magic Reflex, by Marco Antonetto, published by Nassa [sic] Watch Gallery (honestly!) in 2002.

The trouble is that different people use different criteria to support their claims for priority: first patent (cf. Wray), first prototype, first application in a particular field (e.g. Zeiss multicoating quite early in WW2), first official "introduction" at a photo show (whether immediately, or indeed ever, available or not), first production model (no matter how few sold, cf. Gamma Duflex), first commercial success. Obviously "first commercial success" is open to considerable interpretation, and Pentax tends to rely heavily on their own interpretations of this. Sometimes the advocates of different systems simply lie, as with multicoating: quite apart from the Zeiss military applications, Leica appears to have been using it commercially on the first version of the 35/1.4 Summilux well before Pentax's SMC came along.

Cheers,

R.

 

[Roger Hicks]

Well, the Konica Autoreflex T (1967) was the camera I chose to close my History of the 35mm Still Camera (The Focal Press, 1984) because it was the first single-lens reflex with focal plane shutter and exposure automation based on a through-lens reading. For that matter the original Autoreflex was switchable from half-frame to full frame.

And let us not forget the Focaflex, where the focusing screen was on the bottom of the camera and the pentaprism on top; or the half-dozen or so 35mm TLRs (Contaflex, Tessina, Agfa Flexilette, Toyoca, Luckyflex, Bolsey). The Bolsey even had a coupled rangefinder as well.

Those who are interested in camera history could do worse than to look for a copy of the book mentioned above. There are errors, but surprisingly few, given the state of research a third of a century ago. You may even be able to find one of the few rare, unsigned copies.

Cheers