Interchangable-lens 35mm rangefinders with leaf shutters?

[hoot]

Is there such a thing as an interchangable-lens 35mm rangefinder which uses a leaf-shutter in the lenses, like the fixed-lens RFs? If not, why not? The medium-format Mamiya 6 and 7 rangefinders do, and I find that this has only advantages over the focal-plane shutter system. With Leica bodies' rubberized shutters allegedly prone to get damaged by light falloff through uncovered lenses, I'm surprised that Leica, of all companies, hasn't introduced something like that.

 

[bmattock]

Is there such a thing as an interchangable-lens 35mm rangefinder which uses a leaf-shutter in the lenses, like the fixed-lens RFs? If not, why not? The medium-format Mamiya 6 and 7 rangefinders do, and I find that this has only advantages over the focal-plane shutter system. With Leica bodies' rubberized shutters allegedly prone to get damaged by light falloff through uncovered lenses, I'm surprised that Leica, of all companies, hasn't introduced something like that.

There have been leaf-shutter rangefinders and SLRs in the past, but they never seemed to work out very well. Mostly I believe it has to do with foreign matter getting into the works and gumming things up. Also, it is hard to get a leaf shutter to go much past 1/750 second.

Some well-known rangefinders with leaf shutters and removable lenses:

Braun Super Paxette
Argus C4 Geiss America
Argus C44
Argus C33
Ansco Super Anscomark M
Diax Ia & IIa
Werra III and higher (? which models were rf)

There were a bunch of others that escape me at the moment. I have a soft spot in my head for Paxettes, I got way too many of them. None of them work well, they were not 'good' cameras.

My Fujica G690 has removable lenses (6x9 120 or 220 film) and leaf shutters, but the shutter is sealed into each lens (sealed being a relative term).

Nearly ALL large format cameras are leaf-shuttered. But they tend to be babied by their owners, and with good reason - they represent a huge investment. Although the old Graflex's were combat instruments - in civilian life too! They tended to hold up well.

I like leaf shutters. They are inherently quieter, can be flash-synched at all speeds, and they can be reliable - but often are not, sadly. I suppose that's why Leitz didn't get into that game.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

 

[JoeFriday]

my father had a Paxette that he bought in Germany while in the army.. I grew up thinking that was what every camera was like.. now, looking back, I see how unique and charming they were

 

[phototone]

I have an Anscomark M, and it has the leaf shutter behind the interchangeable lens, which presents some design challenges for the wide angle and telephoto lenses. Solme other rangefinders with interchangeable lenses and leaf shutters actually have interchangeable "front elements" of the lens and not the whole lens gets interfchanged.

The Argus C-3 also has completely interchangeable lenses, with the leaf shutter in the camera.

 

[Doug]

Should include the Voigtlander Prominent and Vitessa, and Kodak Retina

 

[Trius]

And the Olympus Ace.

 

[Honu-Hugger]

Also the Zeiss Tenax II: 35mm 24x24 format, 50 exposures to a 36 exposure roll. A 40/2 Sonnar or 40/2.8 Tessar were standard lenses, with a 75/4 Sonnar and a 27/4.5 Orthometar also available. It is a fast firing camera with a lever wind and Compur OS Rapid shutter, top speed is 1/400. I sense a "Camera and Coffee" shot coming...

 

[kabkos]

I think the Akarette was the only 35mm camera where you changed out the lens and the rangefinder at the same time. The manufacturer thought the rangefinder would be more accurate if the lens and rangefinder were a single unit.

 

[former member]

The Kodak Retina IIIS has fully interchangeable lenses and can RF couple with lenses from 28mm to 135mm. The same lenses can also be used with the Retina Reflex cameras. As far as the "foreign material" gumming up the shutter, I have not noticed much of a problem. The IIIS is the easiest camera to flood-clean the shutter. You can get to the front and back of the leafs quite easily! 1/500th of a second is the fastest speed, but you do get X-Xync at that speed.

 

[John Shriver]

Don't forget Minolta Super A and Aires 35-V.

 

[Roger Hicks]

The big problem was feeding an interchangeable lens through a shutter: it's a small hole, and ideally, you want the shutter in the middle, not behind the lens, both for efficiency and to allow reasonable freedom in lens design.

Plaubel got around this on the Makiina roll-film RFs by having the front and rear elements unscrew separately, but this was not outstandingly convenient.

Kodak got around it on the Retina with a common rear cell and interchangeable front cells but this is a dubious optical compromise and the wide-angles were huge and slow.

Look at the size of leaf-shuttered interchangeable lenses with modest focal lengths and apertures for 4x5 inch cameras (or indeed on a Hasselblad, Kowa, etc. where you have the additional trouble and expense of coupling the shutter-cocking) and you can see why this route was never taken. As far as I am aware, the only interchangeable lens for 35mm RF with a built-in shutter was the Flash Summicron.

In the 50s and even into the 60s Prominents remained popular in some studios because they synched at all speeds and had what were widely regarded as the best lenses of leaf-shutter 35mm cameras, and Retinas were used a little, but by this time we are in a niche of a niche of a niche of a niche, or thereabouts.

Cheers,

Roger

 

[Spider67]

Also the Retina IIc/C and IIIc/C.
The lenses are interchangable but not coupled, they are enourmous: The 35mm and 80mm bot f4 ara abot the same dimension and if you use the lens hood the view through the VF/RF is impaired. There alsomis 35 mm f 5,6 which is much smaller. You have to convert the RF distance on the lens and if you used the additional VF the parallax problem was far from solved.

Paxette: Can anyone tell me how to calibrate its Rangefinder?

.... the paxette lenses are in M 39 threadmount so everyone looking for cheap Lenses for his Leica, Bessa R or Canon should beware of Braun lenses!

 

[Luddite Frank]

A word in defense of Leica's focal-plane shutters...

Any cloth shutter can get "cooked" by strong light streaming through the lens, particularly when the lens is stopped-down; but this usually happens when the camera is left sitting somewhere (seat of a car, in the back window of said car), with the lens-cap off, and the lens pointed sun-ward.

There was a period following WW-II when Leitz and other manufacturers were having some issues with material shortages and quality control. Both the shutter curtains and the Vulcanite body covering of the Leica made between 1946-ish and about 1952 can fall into this category. There were also issues with the chromium plating.
I have a Leica III-f , c. 1950 , that is cosmetically beautiful: the vulcanite is perfect, as is the chrome; but the shutter curtains are indeed crackled and shot (Same goes for my Dad's 1951 Nikon S ).

I have four other Leicas ranging from 1932 to 1934 that may have their original curtains, all of which are quite nice, and light-tight.

The only old-time RF focal-plane cameras that would've been immune to this would've been the Contax (?), with their vertical-travelling metal-blind shutter

As for leaf-shutter 35mm interchangeable lens cameras, it looks like the other folks have covered it pretty well.

My first "real" 35mm camera was a Retina IIIc that I got as a senior in high-school, 25 years ago... it came with the 50mm and 85 mm lenses. The 85 is downright hilarious: the front element is at least 3" in diameter, but the rear-element of it, that locks onto the camera, can't be more than 1/2" in diameter... and it is slow - f: 5.6 (?).

I recently picked-up the 35mm Wide-Angle for it; it is comparable in size to the 50 mm prime lens.

It always took great pictures, but I really don't use it since getting an SLR about four years ago, then getting into Leica RF's...

I am awaiting a Voigtlander Prominent outfit, that I "had to have", mostly for the "weird" factor... a buddy has a Prominent, as well as the aforementioned Akarette with the interchangable lens/rangefinder cell: now THAT'S weird !!!!

Leica did make one model with a leaf-shutter: the Leica B, from 1926 to 1930: it had a Compur shutter tacked onto the Barnack body; they're pretty rare.

Luddite Frank

 

[bmattock]

Paxette: Can anyone tell me how to calibrate its Rangefinder?

Which one? The pre-IIL models the top has to be removed, but it cannot be removed well because it is held on with...glue. The IIL and on models I believe you can get to the RF adjustments after taking off the top in the usual way, perhaps one of the adjustments is accessible through the accessory shoe after you remove it - been a long time, don't recall precisely...

.... the paxette lenses are in M 39 threadmount so everyone looking for cheap Lenses for his Leica, Bessa R or Canon should beware of Braun lenses!

Indeed, but everybody and his brother made lenses for the Paxette series, both couple rangefinder and the cheaper uncoupled version. Many, but not all, of them were marked with a "-E-" to indicate coupled and "-R-" to indicated uncoupled.

They're all average at best - perhaps a few sneak into the 'good' category. I happen to like them, but not many do.

NONE OF THEM WILL WORK ON A LEICA - notwithstanding one or two of our inveterate lens hackers here on RFF who have cobbled up a mount or two. For the rest of us, I repeat NONE OF THEM WILL WORK ON A LEICA.

So caveat emptor.

 

[caperunner]

I have a Leidolf Lordomat C35 with an interchangeable lens capability. It has a 50mm f1.9 at present and I am waiting for a 135mm f4.0 Lordonar to arrive.
The parallax view finder has 2 sets of framelines. I assume 50mm and 135mm.

Paxette lenses also won't work on FED and Canon (Leica) bodies!
Agree that they are pleasant wee cameras but removing the top!!? Look out for the clockwork type springs in there. Personally have tried; failed miserably to restore to normal.. Have a box of IIL bits if anyone is interested..

Dave

 

[Riaz Mesbah]

Your Forgetting one of the best... The agfa Ambi Silette. One of the most innovative mounts ever designed.

 

[rxmd]

I'll be true to my role and point out the Soviet FED-10 and FED-11 "Atlas": heavily, ehm, inspired by some Voigtländer or other, with a reputation for a capricious shutter, and with an Industar-61 variant as the only available lens options, but interchangeable-lens, leaf-shutter 35mm rangefinders nonetheless. 🙂