Inversion vs rotation for daylight tank development

[stompyq]

I have been using a Paterson daylight processing tank (the one that always leaks) to develop single 120mm rolls up to this point using inversion. I use Diafine and typically would inversion agitate for the first 30 seconds and then 10 seconds per minute for the remainder of the time.

Recently I was given a bigger tank that can do 2 rolls at once. Inversion is a little combersome with this tank and I was wondering if there is any benefit to inversion vs rotation of the reels using the supplied rod. Should I expect uneven development?

For context I will be using Diafine and have no intention to going for time/temperature development using other developers. I also do not wet print (I scan my negatives) and have no intention of doing so either

 

[kennylovrin]

Try it out a few times. Everyone kept telling me to not use the little squirly rod thing, but I tried it and since then I've gotten better results. Could of course also be that I got better at it overall but there is no reason to say it made it worse when I started using it. Also no leaking and generally much easier to deal with as I never have to fiddle with the outer lid now. I prefer it over inverting the tank, no doubt about that.

I'm doing c41 Dev as well that way and the times are 3,5m if I remember correctly, and never an uneven negative.

 

[Lauffray]

Everyone keeps telling me the rod might cause streaks on the negative. I always rotate first instead of agitating, right after I pour the developer, but agitate for subsequent ones.

I use the 2 roll tank and have no trouble with it, just be careful not to splash developer everywhere if your tank leaks 🙂

 

[stompyq]

Thanks guys. I will try it out. My primary concern is uneven negatives. It would also be nice not to be splashed by stupid developer. I also think if I were to use inversions I need to use a lot more developer vs the recommended amount on the tank (which I'am sure is if you used the supplied stir bar).

 

[_lou_]

I have found on 120 and 135 reels that rotation (that is around the same axis as the reel's) tends to brings uneven development, with the center of the film getting more development that the edges. YMMV of course.

 

[DNG]

I have never used the inversion method with the 2 reel Paterson tank, and have never had streaking with rotation.
Try to have about 1/4-1/2 inch of developer over the reels edge. that is with 35mm... 120, don't know about possible streaking using rotation.

My tested workflow with 35mm

1. Rotation 1st 30s
2. Rotation every 60s for 3s (about 5 rotations)

Negatives are fine for scanning.
I use HC110 H (1:60), 10.5m @ 20c.


even 1 or 2 rotations should be enough to a refresh the developer over the film.

 

[sevo]

Rotation with a motorized processor (and lift arm) is more consistent across different runs.

As far as uneven development goes, the flow pattern of the chemistry across the film is quite predictable in rotation where it is chaotic in inversion. Whether this matters really depends on the developer. In general, single-shot developers are more variable where agitation is concerned than replenishable ones - but there also are differences in oxidation vulnerability or frothing which cause some developers to be less suitable for rotation than others.

 

[Particular]

When I used a Paterson tank I always did inversion. If you lift the edge of the lid and press it to let some air out the leaking isn't as bad. Agitation with a Jobo lying horizontally is much more vigorous than twiddling the reel with the thingy, but they must have considered it ok or they wouldn't have suggested the option. Btw. Can't you double load the Paterson reels with 120? You should be able to fit 4 rolls in that tank.

 

[Ko.Fe.]

I started with rod rotation. Was getting many negatives with uneven developing with difference between middle and edges. Switched to inversions and never have this problem.

 

[Bill Clark]

B&W film:

Paterson = rotation.

Stainless = inversion

Pyro film developer is less forgiving, but haven't experienced any irregularities, except discoloration of the plastic reels with Paterson.

I don't notice any difference between inversion & rotation. Perhaps it's because I primarily use D-76 developer.

When I was developing color it was all with Paterson, rotation.

 

[V-12]

Choosing either inversion or rotation can simply be down to developer and how it reacts with the emulsion, times and strengths can do different things to different films, so don't make a rule you aren't prepared to break.

For myself I hedge my bets, I invert a Paterson tank once, or twice, then give it a swirl to remove air bubbles rather than bang it on the bench.

V

 

[Bob Michaels]

I have always used inversion since all 5 of my Paterson tanks were purchased used and came without the diddle rod. Never had a problem in some 12+ years.

None of my Paterson tanks leak when inverted.

I have 2 of the 5 reel tanks which I use at the same time to process 10 rolls of 35mm or 6 rolls of 120. I never had a problem inverting them even using the Ilford wash method (5 inversions, 10 inversions, 20 inversions in a row) using both 5 reel tanks.

 

[stompyq]

I have always used inversion since all 5 of my Paterson tanks were purchased used and came without the diddle rod. Never had a problem in some 12+ years.

None of my Paterson tanks leak when inverted.

I have 2 of the 5 reel tanks which I use at the same time to process 10 rolls of 35mm or 6 rolls of 120. I never had a problem inverting them even using the Ilford wash method (5 inversions, 10 inversions, 20 inversions in a row) using both 5 reel tanks.

Bob, whats the Ilford wash method?

 

[Particular]

http://www.ilfordphoto.com/Webfiles/200629163442455.pdf

It is described under item 13. Basically;
Fill tank with water, invert 5 times, drain. Fill tank with water, invert 10 times, drain. Fill tank with water, invert 20 times, drain.

 

[Bob Michaels]

Bob, whats the Ilford wash method?

after fixing with rapid fixer (standard ammonium thiosulfate) :
1) fill tank with water, invert 5 times, drain water
2) fill tank with water, invert 10 times, drain water
3) fill tank with water, invert 20 times, drain water
proceed with wash aid step

detailed at page 10 of the excellent Ilford publication "processing your first black and white film"

There is much on the internet about people questioning if this produces truly archival negs and much proof that it does.

edit: CNNY beat me to it. His Ilford link and mine are to the same document.

 

[shortstop]

I use inversion with this model if tank and it leaks, so use gloves




May be this other model I don't have has used by somebody of you that don't report any leakage.







When I washed with running water it was time and water consuming. Since I use Ilford method, all the procedure is shorter and results are excellent. The principle is progressive diluting of fixer until you have no residual.

 

[shortstop]

after fixing with rapid fixer (standard ammonium thiosulfate) : 1) fill tank with water, invert 5 times, drain water 2) fill tank with water, invert 10 times, drain water 3) fill tank with water, invert 20 times, drain water proceed with wash aid step detailed at page 10 of the excellent Ilford publication "processing your first black and white film" There is much on the internet about people questioning if this produces truly archival negs and much proof that it does. edit: CNNY beat me to it. His Ilford link and mine are to the same document.

Nice link, but disagree steps #5, 15 and 16 (hair dryier aaaarrrgh!).

I prefer this


To this one

 

[FrankS]

Throughout my entire photographic B&W developing life I have never used the inversion method of agitation, always twirling the reels with the supplied twirly rod, and I have never noticed uneven development on my negs due to this. I've always used plastic reels in Patterson tanks ranging ing in size from 300 to 1500cc.

Gee, should I change now?

No.

 

[shortstop]

Throughout my entire photographic B&W developing life I have never used the inversion method of agitation, always twirling the reels with the supplied twirly rod, and I have never noticed uneven development on my negs due to this. I've always used plastic reels in Patterson tanks ranging ing in size from 300 to 1500cc. Gee, should I change now? No.

good news. Once I used the rotation; because my tank paterson leak, I could return to the rotation. Cleaner work

 

[Elektrojänis]

I use inversion with this model if tank and it leaks, so use gloves

View attachment 100500
May be this other model I don't have has used by somebody of you that don't report any leakage.

View attachment 100501

I Have that lower model, I use inversions for agitation and it tends to leak a tiny bit. It's old and worn though (my father bought and used it a lot in the 80's) so that might be a contributing factor. Mostly it doesn't really leak before fixer and I think it might have something to do with the pressure caused by closing of the lid.