jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
There is a fine line between (perhaps inadvertently) misleading and attempted fraud. The forum moderation should be alert for the latter. Just report an ad you mistrust.
Irrational urge to edit other people's classified ads.
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Pherdinand
the snow must go on
that is, excuse me, a dumb policy then.
Reading the Classifieds Guidelines (link here, scroll down the page to the guidelines), the only guideline I can see that concerns comments is:
13) DO NOT place negative comments about ads or auctions. Sellers are free to place their ads. Buyers are free to buy, or not buy. There is no need for animosity.
Grafixer
Registered photographer
Hello to all. Your reception of a new member is very lively. Here is my input: a Leica is a tool and not a museum piece. An other similarity between a Leica and a piece of artwork is, the value being in the eyes of the beholder. I might be biased towards this camera, but given its low actuation it is in excellent shape. I did mentioned the cosmetic scuffing on the surface, and had no intention of hiding them. The pictures could be cleaned up in Photoshop in less than 10 minutes. And THAT would be fraud. BTW, the protective film, and not a piece of tape, on the back screen, is what the Leica service put on the last time they serviced it. So much is for observing accurately the facts or projecting one's opinion.
I am sorry to waste the time for all bargain hunters and speculators, but I listed honestly and offered additional pictures or more detailed description for interested parties. Having a discussion behind someone's back sounds to me more like an attempt for public lynching rather than constructive criticism. As far for the chuckle of BLKCAT after seeing my avatar, I am glad to bring some smile in your day. As a photographer, hiding behind some generic graphic design is sounds more pathetic or at least laughable.
My only advice is what others already expressed: buyer beware. Ask any question and I would be happy to disclose it. I am sure there are many offers out there for better equipment and many more for junk. I think this is an honest deal. Not a steel, and not some over hyped deal. Thank you again for your comments.
I am sorry to waste the time for all bargain hunters and speculators, but I listed honestly and offered additional pictures or more detailed description for interested parties. Having a discussion behind someone's back sounds to me more like an attempt for public lynching rather than constructive criticism. As far for the chuckle of BLKCAT after seeing my avatar, I am glad to bring some smile in your day. As a photographer, hiding behind some generic graphic design is sounds more pathetic or at least laughable.
My only advice is what others already expressed: buyer beware. Ask any question and I would be happy to disclose it. I am sure there are many offers out there for better equipment and many more for junk. I think this is an honest deal. Not a steel, and not some over hyped deal. Thank you again for your comments.
KM-25
Well-known
It is really rare for a thread to be started about a piece of gear for sale in the RFF classifieds that seeks to address this angle, so one only has to ask what caused it.
In this case, we have "An Unbelievable Offer" in that we have a Leica M9 and Summarit 50 for sale that is at least $,1500 higher than even the average price on eBay which like it or not, is *the* barometer for what things are selling for.
To add a few more strokes of the hand on the head to scratch one's noggin, the camera is described as "“near mint” or 9 by most reputable experts or dealers." No...not only is not not mint, as far as cosmetics go, this camera would be listed by a dealer like KEH as "bargain" condition. And 16,500 clicks on a low FPS rangefinder is not low, it is average. Also, even if Leica put it on, why would you *leave* the rather unwholesome and ugly tape on the screen if you are trying to show the camera in it's best light? And for that matter, there is not even a mention of the condition of the screen.
There are 50 Summarits in mint or new condition that can be had for under $1,000. There are truly clean grey M9's with fewer than 8K in clicks that are to be had for $2,600.
No one is trying to pull a fast one on you, we just know what things go for and also know that calling this camera mint makes you look bad and expecting over 5K for this kit is a pipe dream. It is not going to sell for that on here. It is also not going to sell for that on any other forum, craigslist or ebay.
Bottom line is that this user grade camera called mint and it's accompanying kit is not going to sell for 5K. Also, people generally are not looking for a kit, they want to make their own so you are far better off selling these items independently. You can take offense to that all the live long day but the facts are the facts.
Good luck with your sale....
In this case, we have "An Unbelievable Offer" in that we have a Leica M9 and Summarit 50 for sale that is at least $,1500 higher than even the average price on eBay which like it or not, is *the* barometer for what things are selling for.
To add a few more strokes of the hand on the head to scratch one's noggin, the camera is described as "“near mint” or 9 by most reputable experts or dealers." No...not only is not not mint, as far as cosmetics go, this camera would be listed by a dealer like KEH as "bargain" condition. And 16,500 clicks on a low FPS rangefinder is not low, it is average. Also, even if Leica put it on, why would you *leave* the rather unwholesome and ugly tape on the screen if you are trying to show the camera in it's best light? And for that matter, there is not even a mention of the condition of the screen.
There are 50 Summarits in mint or new condition that can be had for under $1,000. There are truly clean grey M9's with fewer than 8K in clicks that are to be had for $2,600.
No one is trying to pull a fast one on you, we just know what things go for and also know that calling this camera mint makes you look bad and expecting over 5K for this kit is a pipe dream. It is not going to sell for that on here. It is also not going to sell for that on any other forum, craigslist or ebay.
Bottom line is that this user grade camera called mint and it's accompanying kit is not going to sell for 5K. Also, people generally are not looking for a kit, they want to make their own so you are far better off selling these items independently. You can take offense to that all the live long day but the facts are the facts.
Good luck with your sale....
Spavinaw
Well-known
Yes, over the years I've seen lots of "misteaks" in auction listings. I think the most common one is the single focal length zoom lens.
In all my years I have only written to "correct" one item. As I recall it was a skylight or UV filter by Canon. On the rim it said "For Scoopic Only" (a movie camera). The seller had stated this in the listing, but I'm sure he and most other folks would not know why it was there. I did, because I also had one of these filters. You see the glass is deep set into the metal rim so that when screwed in, the filter glass is one or two millimeters closer to the front element of the lens than a normal filter. Knowing the disaster that could occur if filter and lens met, I wrote the seller. He thanked me, and noted the situation in his auction listing. Potential disaster averted.
In all my years I have only written to "correct" one item. As I recall it was a skylight or UV filter by Canon. On the rim it said "For Scoopic Only" (a movie camera). The seller had stated this in the listing, but I'm sure he and most other folks would not know why it was there. I did, because I also had one of these filters. You see the glass is deep set into the metal rim so that when screwed in, the filter glass is one or two millimeters closer to the front element of the lens than a normal filter. Knowing the disaster that could occur if filter and lens met, I wrote the seller. He thanked me, and noted the situation in his auction listing. Potential disaster averted.
giulio stucchi
Well-known
I kind of laugh when I first saw the ad and the description and simply ignored it.
My only suggestion to the head bartender is to allow sales through RFF only for active users with a minimum number of post.
Giulio
My only suggestion to the head bartender is to allow sales through RFF only for active users with a minimum number of post.
Giulio
mpaniagua
Newby photographer
Hello and welcome to the forum Grafixer. I think most comments could be avoided with a more correct description of the item. I've been handling cameras for about 30 years and, IMHO, a near mint camera doesn't show brassing or scratches, just minor scuffs on the paint surface. Camera is in great shape but, like it's been said, not near mint. You are entitled to name your price, I don't see fault in that. If potential buyer doesn't agree with your price, then he/she should move on and keep looking.
Check on KEH grading:
https://www.keh.com/shop/grading-system
This is the first link I thought about but give you a general idea.
Again, welcome to the forum and good luck on the sale.
Marcelo
jarski
Veteran
Am bit skeptical would this lead to anything else than new sellers posting useless comments to meet required quota?
Am not using classifieds here because most items are in another continent, behind customs etc. But isn't there way for members to flag misleading ads and help mods to spot them and notify seller?
summar
Well-known
I occasionally send a message to a seller if s/he mentions uncertainty about some detail of the equipment and I know the equiment through experience. So far they've always expressed appreciation for my clarification.
rfaspen
[insert pithy phrase here]
Its unfortunate that the new member joined the forum through the process of placing an ad. If he meant to genuinely join our group and be a participating member, he should understand that we see a lot of people who join for the express purpose of unloading gear in the classifieds, and nothing else. Its hard not to take offense to the comments regarding his ad, but they are mostly valid. It would also seem prudent to present the ad in a manner fitting the market. RFF members are quite aware of the market (price), and the rating of condition for gear. The ad seemed like it might have been targeted to a different market, and that too is unfortunate. Clearly, the new member started poking around the forum, perhaps to start getting a feel for our forum, so it could be a matter of his not knowing the level of knowledge among folks here. So if I give the benefit of the doubt; it may be the order of events that is unfortunate here. To Grafixer, if your intent is to join our forum, please try to understand and stick around. Really is a good group (and quite diverse) here. Like all forums, can be contentious at times, but what's new with that? Personally, I warmly welcome new members, and I think that's the general feeling here. So if we're starting on the wrong foot, stick around...
seany65
Well-known
Hello Grafixer, and welcome to the forum. Well, it seems your membership has started with a bang.
I have in the past also started a membership of a forum off in a similar way, I wasn't selling anything, but things didn't go quite as smoothly as I'd expected.
I've been trying to find Grafix's advert. I can't afford an M9, but I am a nosey little turd. I've found the section of '35mm Full Frame and smaller format' and looked at page one, but when I click on 'page 2' etc. page one just opens again.
Anyone got any idea what's going on? Any help would be much appreciated.
Sorry to hijack the thread, but there is a link to this thread, well sort of.
I have in the past also started a membership of a forum off in a similar way, I wasn't selling anything, but things didn't go quite as smoothly as I'd expected.
I've been trying to find Grafix's advert. I can't afford an M9, but I am a nosey little turd. I've found the section of '35mm Full Frame and smaller format' and looked at page one, but when I click on 'page 2' etc. page one just opens again.
Anyone got any idea what's going on? Any help would be much appreciated.
Sorry to hijack the thread, but there is a link to this thread, well sort of.
ChrisPlatt
Thread Killer
It would be neat to have the ability to edit others ads. I'd slash prices on all the items I want. 🙂
Reminds me of bringing a price labeling gun to the supermarket (before there were UPC codes).
Or Roger Thornhill (Cary Grant) bidding down prices in the art auction scene in North By Northwest...
Reminds me of bringing a price labeling gun to the supermarket (before there were UPC codes).
Or Roger Thornhill (Cary Grant) bidding down prices in the art auction scene in North By Northwest...
X
xyz3450
Guest
This seems like an interesting / good idea. It imposes some 'costs' on a seller to be a member of the RFF crowd for a while. Perhaps 10 or so posts? Do any other forum have minimum engagement terms before posting classifieds?
CMur12
Veteran
I belong to another forum (not photography) where one has to have 25 posts before being able to sell something. I always thought that was pretty reasonable.
- Murray
- Murray
unixrevolution
Well-known
Thank you for coming to explain your perpective, and I find it to be completely valid. I have to admit, I didn't so much as try to find your ad before I left my comments above, which I do believe to be good generic guidelines, but are not necessarily applicable in your case.
I'm sorry if I gave you cause for offense, and hope that you can still enjoy participating in the active, generally positive community here.
Grafixer
Registered photographer
Thank you all for your contributions and comments. Some I did find useful and I implemented many suggestions to clarify a few fine points. I do remember the time when I wanted to rekindle my rangefinder experience. While I started out photography with a Russian made Leica copy, but for many decades I became an SRL and later a DSRL user. However about six years ago I bought my M9. Before I did, I was surfing many Leica forum to educate myself. I admit that I am more of a consumer of forums rather than contributor. Nevertheless I bought my first Leica as a kit (it was the M8.2 with a 28mm Summicron.) I sold the camera and kept the lens. I still have it. Leica also sells from time to time kits. So I am convinced there is a market for it. Perhaps not like you Leicaphyle folks, but there are people who would like to pick up a complete kit and start experimenting. This group is my target market.
It is somewhat sad that you people do not make room for these newbies. Many of you sound like some uber elite expert, who cannot tolerate other people with less knowledge than you claim to have. According to you (at least that what sounds like) people who cannot identify any Leica product by it’s serial number, including the color, the year when it was produced and the chief designer, should not share the planet with you. They just sucking the air from the worthy.
However I am a big boy, and as long as things do not get personal, I can take it. If I get bruised I will remember to list myself as BGN and nothing above. Thank you all again for the experience and for taking the time and giving me a good lesson.
It is somewhat sad that you people do not make room for these newbies. Many of you sound like some uber elite expert, who cannot tolerate other people with less knowledge than you claim to have. According to you (at least that what sounds like) people who cannot identify any Leica product by it’s serial number, including the color, the year when it was produced and the chief designer, should not share the planet with you. They just sucking the air from the worthy.
However I am a big boy, and as long as things do not get personal, I can take it. If I get bruised I will remember to list myself as BGN and nothing above. Thank you all again for the experience and for taking the time and giving me a good lesson.
John Lawrence
Well-known
Can't see what all the fuss is about.
If you don't like the price and / or don't think the description is accurate, then don't buy it.
As a general comment, I find that most of the gear I've seen in the classifieds here seems to be more expensive than comparable items elsewhere.
Cheers,
John
If you don't like the price and / or don't think the description is accurate, then don't buy it.
As a general comment, I find that most of the gear I've seen in the classifieds here seems to be more expensive than comparable items elsewhere.
Cheers,
John
nobbylon
Veteran
Exactly, too many advert assasins here.
As for limiting people with x amount of posts to list items for sale, I can't see it as it's revenue for site owner.
I do think that prices are expected to be lower here than anywhere else.
John Lawrence
Well-known
Still can't see what all the fuss is about.
Why does it matter to so many people what price a seller wants to sell their item at?
I don't feel the need or urge to go round the local used car lots telling the dealers the cars they have for sale are overpriced, not described properly - or give them advice on how best to sell them.
Cheers,
John
Why does it matter to so many people what price a seller wants to sell their item at?
I don't feel the need or urge to go round the local used car lots telling the dealers the cars they have for sale are overpriced, not described properly - or give them advice on how best to sell them.
Cheers,
John
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