gb hill
Veteran
I just sent an email off to Canon begging (well not quite), them to consider comming out with a digital rangefinder to compete with the Epson RD-1 & Leica M8. I believe a rangefinder with their full frame CMOS sensor would be awsome, and I believe would be a good seller. Yea I know it's a longshot but stranger things have happend. What do you think? Maybe a QL-17 (D111)
Merry Christmas
Greg
Merry Christmas
Greg
kb244
Well-known
gb hill said:I just sent an email off to Canon begging (well not quite), them to consider comming out with a digital rangefinder to compete with the Epson RD-1 & Leica M8. I believe a rangefinder with their full frame CMOS sensor would be awsome, and I believe would be a good seller. Yea I know it's a longshot but stranger things have happend. What do you think? Maybe a QL-17 (D111)
Merry Christmas
Greg
1) They already have in a way... digital point and shoots. (however none full frame)
2) There would have to be a market to the level of their existing DSLR and P&S.
that and have to resume production of canon branded rangefinder lens, if they want a slice on the market
lol.
xayraa33
rangefinder user and fancier
they can,and they have the know how, and the deep pockets .
but probably will not.
Canon is not a company that likes to look back to its rich past, unfortunetly.
top shelf digital rf cameras are a niche market.
but probably will not.
Canon is not a company that likes to look back to its rich past, unfortunetly.
top shelf digital rf cameras are a niche market.
back alley
IMAGES
i'm thinking canon g7...
ZeissFan
Veteran
I would be stunned if Canon ever produced a digital rangefinder. It has little interest in catering to a niche market -- and this certainly would be that.
The one thing I find ironic is that you can use most other lenses on a Canon EOS -- by fitting it with an adapter -- except Canon's own FD mount.
I just don't see Canon going down this road ... ever. However, I've been wrong so many times before. So you never know.
The one thing I find ironic is that you can use most other lenses on a Canon EOS -- by fitting it with an adapter -- except Canon's own FD mount.
I just don't see Canon going down this road ... ever. However, I've been wrong so many times before. So you never know.
Last edited:
drewbarb
picnic like it's 1999
Never gonna happen. Canon wants to sell you a whole system. They bailed out of RF technology 30 years ago because they saw the wall: most of the world wanted SLR's- with auto focus, auto exposure, auto modes, program modes. In fact, just make it a stick-it-in-your-pocket-7-Megaschnickel wunder P.h.D. camera. In short, most of the world (Canon's market) want making pictures to be easy, so they don't have to know much about it to get half decent results.
We RF shooters are a different breed, and not in the majority, of course. This will have a to change a great deal before a company like Canon sees any incentive to jump into a niche market, for which they would have to develop a whole line of lenses before they could sell you one. Meanwhile, there are 75+ years worth of lenses from a dozen manufacturers ready to be mounted on this body that they would have to make a huge investement to design and build.
Think about that proposition for a moment, too: of course they could fit a chip behind the lens- we've seen them do it. But a full frame 24x36mm chip? Behind an RF lens, with the short mounts used by the LTM/M system? We know what a pain this will be if and when ANYONE ever manages to make this work- the 5D's chip won't do it without some serious work-arounds, both hardware and software. Even if they manage it, they will still have to build a rangefinder, and mechanically couple if to the lenses. Who here thinks of Canon as masters of technically precse mechnical instruments? Sure, they used to be, and it would probably impress us all a great deal if they did, but don't hold your breath. Do you think they are going to dust off not only machines they probably covered up or junked 25-30 years ago, but bring the operators and designers out of retirement? Hire new ones? Either way they are starting essentailly from scratch. And all this for a camera that takes a lens mount they will never hold a patent on? How many of these are they going to sell?
I could go on, and believe me, I'd love to see them do it, but- Never gonna happen.
We RF shooters are a different breed, and not in the majority, of course. This will have a to change a great deal before a company like Canon sees any incentive to jump into a niche market, for which they would have to develop a whole line of lenses before they could sell you one. Meanwhile, there are 75+ years worth of lenses from a dozen manufacturers ready to be mounted on this body that they would have to make a huge investement to design and build.
Think about that proposition for a moment, too: of course they could fit a chip behind the lens- we've seen them do it. But a full frame 24x36mm chip? Behind an RF lens, with the short mounts used by the LTM/M system? We know what a pain this will be if and when ANYONE ever manages to make this work- the 5D's chip won't do it without some serious work-arounds, both hardware and software. Even if they manage it, they will still have to build a rangefinder, and mechanically couple if to the lenses. Who here thinks of Canon as masters of technically precse mechnical instruments? Sure, they used to be, and it would probably impress us all a great deal if they did, but don't hold your breath. Do you think they are going to dust off not only machines they probably covered up or junked 25-30 years ago, but bring the operators and designers out of retirement? Hire new ones? Either way they are starting essentailly from scratch. And all this for a camera that takes a lens mount they will never hold a patent on? How many of these are they going to sell?
I could go on, and believe me, I'd love to see them do it, but- Never gonna happen.
Last edited:
kb244
Well-known
drewbarb said:
Just like seeing a Digital SLR ever designed in the same sense as solid SLRs once were (the kind you could drop off the second floor, and pick it up and keep shooting).
anselwannab
Well-known
Nikon I think is a better bet. I think Canon has really slipped up lately, especially when it comes to the pro-sumer 20D/30D. I have a 20D and really like it, but I think the D200 spanks it pretty hard. Why is it that Nikon can have the pop-up flash control off camare flash units, and can have an auto-is (fixed Tv & Av) exposure mode and Canon can't get it together. Canon missed a cycle, don't know why. Maybe they thought the 5D would catch on more or get more pro-sumer buyers.
I didn't mean this to be a Canon Kick, but I think that the only way that they might bring one back is if they feel pressure from pro-sumers about being percieved as not being the tops in technology and not a "serious" pro-oriented camera company. A dRF, especially if it spanked the M8, would allow them to have a prestige camera. Kind of a Corvette mixed in with what-ever Chevy is trying to sell these days.
If Canon does it, it won't be cheap! I'd take L lens prices and put a hefty premium on them, and a body price closer to a 1DsII (or III?) price point.
I wish someone would come out with a G7 type camera with an APS sensor. I guess the lens would get big though for a zoom. Lack of RAW just kills it for me.
That is the other thing about Canon. If they did bring out a dRF, what makes you think they would make it M lens compatible??? They threw the FD lens mount under the bus, if they really want to make money on it, they'll make you buy all new lenses, from them, and they'd all be L+ pricing.
I'd say our best bets are a B&W only dRF from Mr. K.
P-sonic or Sigma wanting to show they are really hip.
Nikon, because they are Nikon.
Sony, because they want some street cred.
Huw, on pnet, if he ever resurfaces!
Mark
I didn't mean this to be a Canon Kick, but I think that the only way that they might bring one back is if they feel pressure from pro-sumers about being percieved as not being the tops in technology and not a "serious" pro-oriented camera company. A dRF, especially if it spanked the M8, would allow them to have a prestige camera. Kind of a Corvette mixed in with what-ever Chevy is trying to sell these days.
If Canon does it, it won't be cheap! I'd take L lens prices and put a hefty premium on them, and a body price closer to a 1DsII (or III?) price point.
I wish someone would come out with a G7 type camera with an APS sensor. I guess the lens would get big though for a zoom. Lack of RAW just kills it for me.
That is the other thing about Canon. If they did bring out a dRF, what makes you think they would make it M lens compatible??? They threw the FD lens mount under the bus, if they really want to make money on it, they'll make you buy all new lenses, from them, and they'd all be L+ pricing.
I'd say our best bets are a B&W only dRF from Mr. K.
P-sonic or Sigma wanting to show they are really hip.
Nikon, because they are Nikon.
Sony, because they want some street cred.
Huw, on pnet, if he ever resurfaces!
Mark
iml
Well-known
I'm not sure any large manufacturer, whether it be Canon or Nikon, has any interest in RFs at all.
Ian
Ian
gareth
Established
Don't want to start a Nikon/Canon flame war. But I don't understand your critism of the Canon DLSR's. Pop up flash? No thanks, I'm glad my 5D doesn't have it, the body is weaker with pop up flash.
Canon's ace is their full frame sensors. I been shooting with the EF system since 2002, and I'm glad I went with the Canon system and not the Nikon system, I be pretty frustrated right now if I'd have bought into Nikon.
What are serious? You are having a laugh aren’t you? Rangefinders are a nice market, why would Canon want to get involved? And what do you think your average professional photographer uses? A Canon or Nikon DSLR. You want to get paid? You use a do it all digital system. The SLR is the jack of all trades and frankly master of most.
As for those moaning about reliability, toughness etc. I’ve no doubt that cameras like the 1d series are tougher and more reliable than any rangefinder. Lets get real.
If Canon did make a digital rangefinder, they would do it for fun, nostalgia or whatever.
Frankly I think there are two chances of Canon making such a camera, the first is none, and the second is bugger all.
Will
Well-known
If they get in bed with cosina, we might have a new camera.
Cosina is a recongised OEM supplier (look at Zeiss now, Nikon, Yashica in the past), they have a platform is out there without development cost (Bessa R), all it needs is the electronics.
With the willingness to go overbroad in the lens department (RF 50/0.95; SLR 50/1, 85/1.2, 200/1.8, 1200/5.6), if Canon every get back into RF with cosina, the whole RF market might become just that little bit more interesting...
Cosina is a recongised OEM supplier (look at Zeiss now, Nikon, Yashica in the past), they have a platform is out there without development cost (Bessa R), all it needs is the electronics.
With the willingness to go overbroad in the lens department (RF 50/0.95; SLR 50/1, 85/1.2, 200/1.8, 1200/5.6), if Canon every get back into RF with cosina, the whole RF market might become just that little bit more interesting...
jlw
Rangefinder camera pedant
Apologies for reviving something I wrote previously on another thread, but it seems people here are more interested in this type of speculation.
My take: No, Canon would never be interested in making this type of camera. As someone else said, they prefer to look forward rather than backward, and their business interest is best served by convincing people that high-spec point-and-shoots are best for "casual" photographers and DSLRs are best for "serious" photographers.
However... if anyone were going to design a really modern RF camera, it's Canon that would be in the best position to do it. Features such a theoretical camera might have:
-- Rangefinder coupled to lens electronically, rather than mechanically. Each lens would include a digital encoder that would measure the set focusing distance and transmit it to the camera. A micromotor similar to those used to position disk-drive heads would rotate the RF optics to the matching angle. This would eliminate the costly hand finishing and calibration needed to make current rangefinder modules and lens coupling cams, which in turn might enable the camera to be priced at little more than an EOS 5D.
-- 24 x 36 CMOS sensor with on-chip vignetting correction: I've stated many times before that I don't believe there's anything magic about the 24x36 sensor size, but it would differentiate their camera in the marketplace and capitalize on the EOS 5D's good reputation for high-ISO performance. One advantage of a CMOS sensor is that it can include on-chip circuitry (I've read that that's how Canon counteracts CMOS's inherently higher noise) so vignetting correction seems like a possibility.
-- Option to use either M-mount lenses or selected DSLR lenses: Here would be the real payoff for Canon. If it's possible to engineer the electronic distance coupling I described above, it would be fairly simple (and inexpensive) to add the encoder to selected lenses from their DSLR line, while preserving the ability to use these lenses on a DSLR. (Does a DRF system with Canon's 35/1.4, 50/1.2, and 85/1.2 lenses sound good to you? Yeah, me too.)
The RF camera would come with a "coupler" that mounts on the body and provides the needed electronic contacts and additional thickness to use the DSLR-derived lenses; remove the coupler and you've got a mount for M lenses.
Using the DSLR lenses would involve some sacrifice in compactness, but their greater body depth would eliminate a lot of the chief-ray-angle and vignetting problems inherent in a shallow-body RF camera. And it would enable Canon to market the RF body as something EOS users could buy as an add-on to their existing systems.
Note that in this listing I've deliberately eliminated "blue-sky" features such as a fully zooming range/viewfinder and autofocus; I'm sure Canon would have the capability to design such features into an RF camera, but they'd add significantly to the size and complexity and make it a riskier investment. The whole beauty of this scheme is that if an electronically coupled RF system could be designed, the rest of the camera could be based rather inexpensively on existing EOS components.
As I said before, I am sure that Canon would NEVER contemplate making such a camera. It's strictly a fantasy I made up. But it's such a plausible fantasy, isn't it?
My take: No, Canon would never be interested in making this type of camera. As someone else said, they prefer to look forward rather than backward, and their business interest is best served by convincing people that high-spec point-and-shoots are best for "casual" photographers and DSLRs are best for "serious" photographers.
However... if anyone were going to design a really modern RF camera, it's Canon that would be in the best position to do it. Features such a theoretical camera might have:
-- Rangefinder coupled to lens electronically, rather than mechanically. Each lens would include a digital encoder that would measure the set focusing distance and transmit it to the camera. A micromotor similar to those used to position disk-drive heads would rotate the RF optics to the matching angle. This would eliminate the costly hand finishing and calibration needed to make current rangefinder modules and lens coupling cams, which in turn might enable the camera to be priced at little more than an EOS 5D.
-- 24 x 36 CMOS sensor with on-chip vignetting correction: I've stated many times before that I don't believe there's anything magic about the 24x36 sensor size, but it would differentiate their camera in the marketplace and capitalize on the EOS 5D's good reputation for high-ISO performance. One advantage of a CMOS sensor is that it can include on-chip circuitry (I've read that that's how Canon counteracts CMOS's inherently higher noise) so vignetting correction seems like a possibility.
-- Option to use either M-mount lenses or selected DSLR lenses: Here would be the real payoff for Canon. If it's possible to engineer the electronic distance coupling I described above, it would be fairly simple (and inexpensive) to add the encoder to selected lenses from their DSLR line, while preserving the ability to use these lenses on a DSLR. (Does a DRF system with Canon's 35/1.4, 50/1.2, and 85/1.2 lenses sound good to you? Yeah, me too.)
The RF camera would come with a "coupler" that mounts on the body and provides the needed electronic contacts and additional thickness to use the DSLR-derived lenses; remove the coupler and you've got a mount for M lenses.
Using the DSLR lenses would involve some sacrifice in compactness, but their greater body depth would eliminate a lot of the chief-ray-angle and vignetting problems inherent in a shallow-body RF camera. And it would enable Canon to market the RF body as something EOS users could buy as an add-on to their existing systems.
Note that in this listing I've deliberately eliminated "blue-sky" features such as a fully zooming range/viewfinder and autofocus; I'm sure Canon would have the capability to design such features into an RF camera, but they'd add significantly to the size and complexity and make it a riskier investment. The whole beauty of this scheme is that if an electronically coupled RF system could be designed, the rest of the camera could be based rather inexpensively on existing EOS components.
As I said before, I am sure that Canon would NEVER contemplate making such a camera. It's strictly a fantasy I made up. But it's such a plausible fantasy, isn't it?
xayraa33
rangefinder user and fancier
maybe.. just maybe, Olympus might be the darkhorse here and introduce a highend DRF.
If they still employ designers of the calibre of Maitani san
it might be a sweet thing.
Imagine,.. Zuiko rf lenses in M mount, nice.
If they still employ designers of the calibre of Maitani san
it might be a sweet thing.
Imagine,.. Zuiko rf lenses in M mount, nice.
jlw
Rangefinder camera pedant
I dunno, Olympus seems pretty much married to Four Thirds DSLRs now.
If we were to see a high-spec DRF from another source, I think it would come from a place that nobody expects -- a Chinese startup, maybe.
This wouldn't be the stupidest idea in the world for a company that wanted to make a reputation in the photography market in a hurry, without going head-to-head with the existing big names. They could then use that reputation to expand into higher-volume, more-profitable lines such as DSLRs and point-n-shoots.
If we were to see a high-spec DRF from another source, I think it would come from a place that nobody expects -- a Chinese startup, maybe.
This wouldn't be the stupidest idea in the world for a company that wanted to make a reputation in the photography market in a hurry, without going head-to-head with the existing big names. They could then use that reputation to expand into higher-volume, more-profitable lines such as DSLRs and point-n-shoots.
kb244
Well-known
Course you ever wonder if a hingded back Canon RF could ever be converted to digital in the future... just have to find a means to tie the shutter button to the back to prep it for capture.
I remeber hearing a rumor a long time ago how there was gona be a digital sensor of sort that was tied to a 35mm film canister type of design so that almost any film camera could be a digital. But it was also rumored that one of the bigger companies that focused on DSLR bought it out and killed the project.
Most likely a whole lot of huff and puff, but one can dream bout it.
I remeber hearing a rumor a long time ago how there was gona be a digital sensor of sort that was tied to a 35mm film canister type of design so that almost any film camera could be a digital. But it was also rumored that one of the bigger companies that focused on DSLR bought it out and killed the project.
Most likely a whole lot of huff and puff, but one can dream bout it.
pizzahut88
Well-known
Fat chance.
Fat chance.
So good luck.
there will never be an affordable digital rangefinder.
Yes, I would want one.
No, Canon will never make one.
They want you to buy a DSLR.
Along with all the cheap plasticky lenses . . .
None to last more than five years.
The world is full of dumb consumers.
So the top development dollars goes to them.
Tough luck for us.
Fat chance.
So good luck.
there will never be an affordable digital rangefinder.
Yes, I would want one.
No, Canon will never make one.
They want you to buy a DSLR.
Along with all the cheap plasticky lenses . . .
None to last more than five years.
The world is full of dumb consumers.
So the top development dollars goes to them.
Tough luck for us.
HAnkg
Well-known
Given enough time and money anything is possible, but compamies commit resourses where they can make the greatest return on investment. Canon/Nikon can't afford to divert resoucrces in such a competitive market away from the DSLR/P&S development.
It's taking all they have to defend and grow market share in their main lines of business.
It's taking all they have to defend and grow market share in their main lines of business.
VinceC
Veteran
>>Given enough time and money anything is possible, but compamies commit resourses where they can make the greatest return on investment. Canon/Nikon can't afford to divert resoucrces in such a competitive market...<<
Nikon devoted some of its resources to reengineer and remanufacture two of its classic cameras from 49 years ago. It did this for reasons beyond pure profit ... catering to devotees; prestige; acknowleding its historic legacy; allowing its engineers and technicians to pursue excellence for the sake of excellence.
Nikon devoted some of its resources to reengineer and remanufacture two of its classic cameras from 49 years ago. It did this for reasons beyond pure profit ... catering to devotees; prestige; acknowleding its historic legacy; allowing its engineers and technicians to pursue excellence for the sake of excellence.
jlw
Rangefinder camera pedant
kb244 said:
Oh, crap, the Silicon Film conspiracy theory rides again!
YES, there was a company called Silicon Film that had announced it was developing a product that would let you use any 35mm film camera to make digital pictures. They even issued pictures of prototypes.
NO, it wasn't killed by being bought out by a DSLR manufacturer. It died because the technical obstacles were too great.
John Shriver
Well-known
DSLR's aren't enormously profitable for Nikon or Canon, they are really about brand prestige and image. I've read that there have been pressures to punt them, and just stick with the profitable stuff, the P&S digitals.
So I think this would argue against something even lower profit than the DSLR line, like a DRF.
Plus, while Canon does make their own full-frame sensor, it too has microlenses, and would have the same corner problems that Leica saw, causing them to use the 1.33X crop sensor. It's not like Kodak couldn't have made Leica a full-frame sensor, they could easily have done it. (The same sensor cell design is used for the 39megapixel medium-format backs.)
I don't think we can see a full-frame M-mount digital rangefinder until there are sensors sensitive enough to not need microlenses. If the physics allow that at all. Right now they need microlenses to get reasonable ISO speeds.
So I think this would argue against something even lower profit than the DSLR line, like a DRF.
Plus, while Canon does make their own full-frame sensor, it too has microlenses, and would have the same corner problems that Leica saw, causing them to use the 1.33X crop sensor. It's not like Kodak couldn't have made Leica a full-frame sensor, they could easily have done it. (The same sensor cell design is used for the 39megapixel medium-format backs.)
I don't think we can see a full-frame M-mount digital rangefinder until there are sensors sensitive enough to not need microlenses. If the physics allow that at all. Right now they need microlenses to get reasonable ISO speeds.