Is anyone bummed about the R3a/R2a?

[g0tr00t]

I mean when I started learning about RF's the key item that stood was that you don't need battery. If it dies, big deal.

Sunny 16 or a handheld meter and shoot!

Does anyone feel that they should offer a model similar to the manual R2 or am I missing something?


I am still a newbster to RF's....

 

[peter_n]

You could always get a Leica M6... 😉

 

[g0tr00t]

You could always get a Leica M6... 😉

Agh...yes....I like your thinking! 🙂

 

[rover]

The battery will be the last thing that I will be disappointed with. Lets be real, they are small, I can carry 100 of them if I have to.

It will be the best camera in the world until I get mine and can really use it to see what's up. The only thing that bothers me about the execution of the new Bessas is that it isn't A new Bessa. They should have redesigned the RF making the baselength longer so that you don't have to compromise either on the long or short side when it comes to focal lenghts.

How many years away are we until the new ZI will be rebadged as the Bessa R4a?

 

[back alley]

rover, the solution is simple, get a back up camera (canon P) for the longer baselength for the longer/shorter lenses you desire.

best of both worlds...

joe

 

[g0tr00t]

I know you can carry the batteries just about anywhere... 😉

My point was that I associated RF's with a purely manual camera. Now that it seems to be moving more towards "electronical"....whats next AF?

Just more stuff to go wrong when you throw electronics into it. Especially when you live here in Florida with the lovely salty air. Snifffff, agh....smell that salt destroying any and all electronics and foam....

How about the electronics in colder weather. I wonder which camera would withstand the cold better R2 or R2a....Hmmm.....

😉

 

[Pherdinand]

Salty wet air is a killer to fine mechanical moving parts too. Should be even more killer for e.g. a mechanical timing module of a shutter than for an electronic version.

 

[Pherdinand]

Electronics in cold usually improve, on the other hand 🙂 except when it's so cold that they crack off from the substrate.

 

[former member]

These new-fangled electronic cameras! Yeah, I wish the all-mechanical R2 was in production alongside the "a" series. Electronics are cheaper to manufacture. I will stick to my mechanical marvels.

 

[g0tr00t]

I thought I threw this quote in....

With the previous mechanical Voigtlander Bessa L, T, R, and R2 discontinued at the factory and limited to stock on hand, the current all electronic shutter Bessa R2A/3A lineup leaves Voigtlander without a manual shutter Leica mount RF camera.

-- Stephen Gandy

To me it is odd that they would discontinue the model. Unless......its going to be re-released....

 

[Socke]

These new-fangled electronic cameras! Yeah, I wish the all-mechanical R2 was in production alongside the "a" series. Electronics are cheaper to manufacture. I will stick to my mechanical marvels.

As far as I understood, the mechanical shutter is no longer available.

So the Leica MP seems to be the only pure mechanical rangefinder still in production.

I'm not sure about mechanical SLRs either, as they may have had the same shutter.

 

[rover]

I believe in Roger Hick's article in the Jan 05 Shutterbug he comments that the mechanical shutters are available and that he has urged Mr K to introduce another mechanical camera.

I still think there is room for a better alternative to the Leica M, that is less expensive than the ZI. What about the shutter and exposure system used in the Nikon FM3a? What about a longer baseline finder like that in the ZI? The components exist, they just have to be put together.

I don't think they have ever done this before, but if any company is in the financial condition to produce a small market, niche product to bring some attention and cache to themselves, I would think it is Canon. They are the gorilla of the photography industry are they not?

Just think Joe, a new P!

 

[jlw]

I still think there is room for a better alternative to the Leica M, that is less expensive than the ZI. What about the shutter and exposure system used in the Nikon FM3a? What about a longer baseline finder like that in the ZI? The components exist, they just have to be put together.

The shutter and exposure systems used in FM3a are very similar to the ones used in the previous mechanical Bessas. So Cosina already has access to those components.

The longer baseline finder in the (vaporous) Zeiss-Ikon camera also was engineered by Cosina.

So if Cosina could put those components together and make a camera exactly the same as the ZI, but less expensive... don't you think they would have done that?

What a lot of people don't realize is that interchangeable-lens rangefinder cameras are inherently expensive to make, because of the mechanical precision needed in the RF/VF module. Making the baseline longer increases the precision required, so the expense goes up even more.

I'm inclined to suspect that the reason the putative ZI camera is more expensive is not because it's a Zeiss-branded camera, but because it's a long-base camera.

I wonder if the idea didn't originate with Cosina... then, when they added up the costs of manufacturing a camera with a longer base length, they concluded that consumers wouldn't pay that much for a product sold under the C-V brand name. So, they negotiated with Zeiss to allow use of their more illustrious name on the new camera.

I don't think they have ever done this before, but if any company is in the financial condition to produce a small market, niche product to bring some attention and cache to themselves, I would think it is Canon. They are the gorilla of the photography industry are they not?

While I would love to see a 'Canon 8s,' the problem is that Canon has absolutely no current product on which to base such a camera. They would have to engineer the whole thing from scratch, which would be hugely expensive for a niche-market product. The only reason Cosina was able to successfully revive the moderate-price RF camera segment is that they already had a small all-mechanical SLR chassis on which to base their new cameras.

 

[jlw]

Re: Is anyone bummed about the R3a/R2a?

I mean when I started learning about RF's the key item that stood was that you don't need battery.

Sure, but that's just your personal preconception. Ya know, until relatively recently, there was NO 35mm camera that was dependent on batteries! It wasn't just a unique feature of RFs.

When SLRs started switching over to battery-dependent designs, there was a certain amount of whingeing by the photo-pundits, and a few cameras (Canon EF and original Pentax Electro Spotmatic, for example) tried to placate them by offering a range of backup mechanical shutter speeds. But when it turned out that buyers didn't actually care enough to give these cameras a marketplace advantage, that feature started fading away.

After all, nobody was complaining that film cameras were "film-dependent." ("You mean that if I run out of this film stuff, I have to stop taking pictures? That sucks!") and eventually most people got used to the idea that just as you had to carry extra film, you also ought to carry extra batteries.

I suspect that the only reason this thinking didn't carry over to the serious-RF market was that at that point there were no players in it except Leica, and their buyers seemed perfectly happy to keep buying the same warmed-over 1954 design with its cuckoo-clock-and-windowshade shutter!

You'll notice that as soon as Contax (G series) and Konica (Hexar RF) crashed the party with electronically controlled cameras, Leica ditched its no-battery religion and trotted out the M7 forthwith.

So the fact that the R3a and R2a depend on batteries isn't really the start of some disastrous trend.

I agree that it would have been nice if they had kept the R2 in production for the no-battery faithful, but maintaining separate production lines for it probably wouldn't have made sense economically.

Besides, thanks to the fact that mechanical RF cameras tend to last a really long time, you've still got plenty of choices on the used market if you really are allergic to batteries...

 

[digitalox]

I am bummed out about the R2a/R3a.


Because I do not have one. 🙂

 

[SolaresLarrave]

The battery dependency doesn't bother me that much as long as it's restricted to the meter, as it's the case of the M6 and M6TTL. With the M7, you lose meter and the shutter, although you still keep two speeds, 1/60 and 1/125.

With my first camera, a Minolta X370s, the day the first battery died... I died too! Then I realized that the whole camera body is powered by a small coin-shaped S76 battery: meter and shutter go out without it. From then on, I always carried batteries with me. And continue to this day!

 

[sfaust]

I'm bummed out because I ordered a R3a, and it hasn't shipped till this week!! Look at all the time I missed shooting it.

I don't mind the battery dependency at all. I used to carry two separate sets in my camera bag with all my early Nikon stuff anyway. If they failed, I replaced the batteries and kept on shooting. And I find the benefits of having the AE very useful in fast street shooting in varied conditions. I'm selling my R2 for the R3a if that's any indication 🙂

There are still photographers that are all dismayed with these modern cameras that no longer fold out or have bellows attached. But the market and photographers march on happily without them, just as it has also been doing with without RF's as a driving force. Photography is changing at a rapid pace, and its leaving some photographer behind. As unfortunate as that may be, there is nothing we can do to stop it.

As much as I like the mechanical marvels of RF's, they are not my primary shooting machine for all the obvious limitations they have. Same reason I gave up my 72 VW with the very simple and less complex engine and systems. Talk about simplicity and reliable. However, my new vehicles run so damn well with all the complicated parts and systems, simplicity is obviously not a factor. Heck, my wifes Cadillac just went in for her first normal 'scheduled tune up' at 100K!! Ran absolutely perfect for that entire 100K! Try that with a 72 VW.

As odd as this may sound, I have never had a Nikon SLR in for repairs in the past 25 years I've been using them. And I use these professionally and am fairly hard on them. They are also generally the high end techno wonder complex versions (F4, F5, D1x, S2 Pro, etc). However, I have sent in multiple rangefinders for viewfinder cleaning, CLA's, and rangefinder adjustments, and I only use them occasionally. Mechanical or not, they aren't my most reliable equipment.

So the fact the R3a needs batteries doesn't bother me at all. I just hope its capable of holding up to the same standards as my Nikon electro-wonders! 🙂

But either way, I do love the RF's when I want a relaxing day doing what I enjoy...shooting.

 

[FrankS]

Stephen, can I have first dibs on your R2 when you're ready to sell it? (I know I don't NEED another camera, but this isn't about need.)

 

[rover]

jlw, I think in a lot of ways we agree. If putting in an electronic shutter with 100% mechanical back up and a longer baselength rangefinder drives up the cost of the Bessa, then so be it. I was prepared to pay more for the R3a than I did for the product that I wanted, and I think there is a price point for this camera. What I don't agree with is the thought that Cosina cannot sell a camera at this price point with out a Zeiss or Hasselblad name on it. In fact, take the blue banner off the ZI and don't have Hasselblad distribute it and you have a $1,000 camera, or maybe less. Sure, the Leica maniacs will turn their noses up at it, but if the quality is there, they will also buy them as back ups and slowly come out of the closet in time. I would say that there is a smaller market for a $2,500 camera than there is for a $1,000 one, especially if the $1,000 is of high quality. Perhaps not Leica quality, but something that is excellent on its own merits.

 

[sfaust]

Frank, its listed up on eBay now (3858052204). I didn't even think of listing it here. Now that I think about it, I should have. Sorry to all that might have been interested 🙁

If it helps any, I will have a couple others for sale. Nothing real interesting .. Vivitar 35ES, Yashica 35CC, GSN, MG-1, and maybe the S3 I got recently from Rover. Not sure on the S3, but maybe. I'm keeping the R3a, black QL17 GIII, and the black Kiev 4a.