So, with all due respect to Stephen and Eggo (sorry, couldn't help myself) let's talk about Cosina's sleeping habits.
Keith
The best camera is one that still works!
How about a tri-skopar?
Do Leica sell many tri-elmars ... a bit of competition in that area wouldn't do them any harm!
Do Leica sell many tri-elmars ... a bit of competition in that area wouldn't do them any harm!
soelin
Member
Talking about sleeping at the wheels–it's also hard to believe Leica (seems to be) doing very little to increase production of their lenses. It's near impossible to buy a new Leica lens and all the used ones are way over-priced.
Not True.
I make it a point of not rushing anyone,
since I don't like to be rushed or pressured into buying myself.
You probably misinterpreted me telling you that payment had to be made by a certain time in order to ship that day.
That it not unusual, since most items are shipped the same day and most customers are in a hurry to receive their item ASAP.
Stephen
Keith
The best camera is one that still works!
At some stage surely the current Bessa range will need to be looked at ... though maybe like film it will just continue on at at reduced production levels. To me the only Bessa body that offers anything out of the ordinary is the R4* ... that and the R3* could be retained as AE only and the rest of the line dropped IMO. This would free up resources to seriously consider some sort of digital option of their own whether it be a rangefinder or mirrorless.
john_s
Well-known
No problem here either, and even further away.
filmfan
Well-known
I think their conservative approach is smart. The last thing I would want is for them to spend a bunch of cash developing new lenses/bodies and go broke.
Bob Michaels
nobody special
We must not forget that Cosina is a privately owned for profit business. Their objective is not to offer competition for anyone else. Nor is it to make everything that each small niche thinks they would like to see in the market.
I see them as having a limited product line that satisfies 99% of the market needs. Why worry about the other 1% which would be higher risk and potentially unprofitable. Mr. K seems to have a good business model to me.
I cannot see Cosina offering products that compete head on with the Zeiss Ikon products they manufacture. That is just bad business.
While we all would like to see a digital Cosina manufactured body, it seems illogical to me that they would bet the farm on being successful in a new market with many larger successful competitors.
I am happy with the product line Cosina has. I can't think of anything else that I would buy that could be realistically manufactured. Sure we would all like to see lenses that were faster, sharper, lighter, smaller and also cheaper. But it is not going to happen given the limitations of optics and production realities. I would like to see their production QC improve, but that is a separate issue.
Keith
The best camera is one that still works!
All you say is very true Bob ... when you consider that Cosina are the only company manufacturing new rangefinder bodies (Leica don't count IMO ... unless your well heeled) we should be grateful for their and Mr K's ongoing interest.
Juan Valdenebro
Truth is beauty
And the T's too...
I second Keith: a relatively small 35/50 would sell well for a long time...
About Cosina: thank God! Thanks everyone involved! You're a blessing!!!
About cameraquest: very fast, easy and friendly service every time in my case, at a great price, even with free US shipping from as low as $200: that's a lot better than any other place... @ wafflecakee: for sure there was some confusion... Try Stephen again: he loves photography and nice gear and happy photographers a lot more than sales... And his camera articles and all the info on his site are unsurpassed: concise and full of real experience and taste... And his forum, well, it's just another thing: RFF is a very sweet place in our hearts...
Cheers,
Juan
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Mrbessar4a
Member
I'm going to ignore the people that called me a troll and respond to this actually intelligent response, which seemed to understand my critique more than "keep quiet I don't like change" type responses.
I don't think a digital solution for their lens line is a niche product anymore. Leica has sold 30,000 M9 cameras since their introduction. Fuji has sold 70,000 X100 cameras! You have to admit that the X100 has Leica ethos in it's design, autofocus or no. That's 100,000 people who are willing to throw down their cold hard cash for a rangefinder type product. 30 thousand of which are wealthy enough to afford the M9, and the rest take their photography seriously enough to buy an X100...
This isn't even counting Olympus Pen owners, or Ricoh GXR owners... Or maybe even those of us (aren't their 50K Rangefinder forum members?) Who haven't found a compelling and affordable Digital RF option.
Add to that, we've already seen smartphones eat into the point and shoot market. What does that have to do with my argument? Well the only people left to buy cameras after the iPhone makes point and shoots obsolete will be people who actually like photography for what it is.
After seeing these numbers, I reject the notion rangefinder users are a small, niche market. I believe there are many, many passionate photo enthusiasts who enjoy good camera design as much as good photography. That's what the rangefinder user is in my opinion. We sometimes sacrifice function for design, but we like it that way, and we know it makes us better photographers. Nikon's and Canon's have their place, but if either came out with a digital camera that looked like an FM (with a few modern touches), you have to admit it, like the X100, would be impossible to buy new without waiting on a list. People go crazy for good design and performance to boot. That's what the M9 is, that's what the X100 is. (and that's where Micro 4/3rds has fallen short...mediocre design, great lenses, mediocre sensor technology).
Even slow as molasses LEICA is designing a mirror less solution! How long did it take them to even put TTL in their metered body? And now they're following in the footsteps of the EP-1!
Cosina on the other hand has a full lens line (I'm counting Zeiss). A full film body line. They have no gaps right now that I really see. They don't have EVERY lens as I see from this forum, but they have enough. What they don't have is a digital rangefinder that average middle class people can afford. They even already BUILT one with Epson! I cannot understand why they don't to fill the hole left by Leica and their outrageous pricing. Fuji, Sony, and Leica are making a killing off the rangefinder ethos (some following it more closely than others, admittedly), and Cosina is selling it's lenses to film enthusiasts and the few digital M owners that there are.
DNG
Film Friendly
A new or upgraded body might be nice....
Although, the current RF's are pretty competent.
Although, the current RF's are pretty competent.
- 1/4000
- Spot meter option
- Titanium Body option
- RF Magnifier (Canon RF Style)
Tom A
RFF Sponsor
As for new products, think Bessa 667W - a multiformat 120 camera with one of the best finders ever put into a 120 camera, an AE system that works perfectly 99% of the time and it feels a bit like a M2 on steroids. Combine it with a Bessa III for the "normal" FL - nice two camera, portable 120 6x6/6x7 set up.
Cosina is one of the most innovative of any of the manufacturers today - and really, the only one still making film-based rangefinders, though Leica has taken up the production of M7's and MP's again!!!!! - Film is not dead by any means.
Like all the Japanese manufacturers, the tragedy in Sendai in March has meant that some essential parts are still in short supply for many of the camera/lens makers and Nikon's flooded Singapore plant did not help.
I suspect that most of the camera manufacturers (and lens makers) are looking at the world economy and trying to judge the impact on their product line. Nobody wants to get stuck with huge (and expensive) inventories in an economic downturn.
Cosina is one of the most innovative of any of the manufacturers today - and really, the only one still making film-based rangefinders, though Leica has taken up the production of M7's and MP's again!!!!! - Film is not dead by any means.
Like all the Japanese manufacturers, the tragedy in Sendai in March has meant that some essential parts are still in short supply for many of the camera/lens makers and Nikon's flooded Singapore plant did not help.
I suspect that most of the camera manufacturers (and lens makers) are looking at the world economy and trying to judge the impact on their product line. Nobody wants to get stuck with huge (and expensive) inventories in an economic downturn.
Mrbessar4a
Member
Does Fuji make that or Cosina? I've always wondered. But yes, I'm a big fan of that camera.
Keith
The best camera is one that still works!
I forget about Cosina's efforts with that camera occasionally ... that was a bold move. I used a Bessa lll for a couple of weeks and never really bonded with it but I do remember it was a very well made camera.
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JayM
Well-known
I also don't understand what is missing. Thanks to their lineup of lenses I feel like I have everything I need and they offer even more than that. Now I can focus on taking pictures and turn my gadget craze towards other things like maybe a nice watch or some new pants.
Tom A
RFF Sponsor
I have the Bessa III to. Nice, but a bit bulky when "unfolded" - very good optics, in fact about as good optic that you can find with a fixed lens 120 camera.
The Bessa 667W I find easier to use. Not exactly "svelte" - but not that big. The fact that nothing needs to be folded/unfolded makes it more intuitive to use. Both the III and the 667W fill nicely slide in to a smallish Brady bag, with room for 15-20 rolls of 120 film (and spare batteries!!).
rxmd
May contain traces of nut
It's a really small segment. It's misleading to think that, say, if Leica can sell 30.000 cameras at $7500, then the segment must be so big that it should be possible to sell, say, 120.000 cameras at $2500 (figuratively speaking). Leica is a luxury goods company; many of their buyers don't look at the price. In that segment nobody really competes with Leica at all, which is why the company is still alive. If you are a luxury goods company in the world of the 2010s, you are effectively betting that somewhere in the world the income distribution is unequal enough, while the overall income base is wide enough, that there will be enough people indulging in luxury spending. Currently that seems to be East Asia; ten years from now it might be Europe again. I don't see Cosina in that market at all.
In fact if Cosina made a digital rangefinder, I wouldn't expect them to sell more than those 30,000 cameras, even if they make a full-frame rangefinder for half of what Leica charges for it. How may film Bessas did they sell, overall? I'd assume a number in the low five digits (but I'm happy to stand corrected if someone actually knows). That only worked out because the R&D for the camera was basically done, except the rangefinder mechanism. On the other hand, I'm surprised that Fuji sold only 70,000 X100 cameras (I would have expected it to be more). Fuji was prudent to build a mass-market-compatible autofocus compact with a movie mode, instead of, say, a manual-focus rangefinder, which wouldn't have sold anywhere near as many. Even those 70,000 were sold largely because of its looks, where Cosina for all their merits traditionally aren't strong - the Bessas are not examples of industrial design, they are very plain and functionally OK cameras built to a price.
The R-D1 you mention was many things, but it was not a great success, nor an outstanding piece of industrial design. People complained about the $3000 price, but at that price it was already difficult to provide good service, the dealer network was spotty, there was no advertising, and R-D1 sales (here I'm speculating) probably didn't generate the extra R&D millions to warrant continued development of an R-D2. The R-D1 experience was not a good one, a bold move that didn't really work out.
The digital camera market is murderous. Places like the mirrorless market are no place for newcomers - can you name any single company that makes mirrorless cameras that hasn't been around all the time with their own digital camera brand for at least ten years? The only place for newcomers are the really crazy market niches (Lytro comes to mind) and for that, well-designed rangefinder-style retro cameras aren't crazy enough. Also, digital camera turnover is short; if you have a product, you can't really capitalize on it for more than 2-3 years before you have to come out with the next one. The R-D1 was dropped three years after introduction. Leica's position is already precarious enough; if they make one camera now that really tanks after sinking tens of R&D millions into it, Leica is basically bust. Leica goes into the mirrorless market now, but their market segment is the very-high-end and the luxury market; I'd be surprised if they made anything else than a very high-end, very expensive mirrorless.
Most prominently, Cosina is now in the very comfortable position. Camera-wise they have always been a low-end manufacturer, but now, as one of the last manufacturers of film cameras, they have a respectable brand that they never had before. Nowadays, film cameras are a rewarding sector, where R&D can be done with minimal investment if you already have your assembly line and in-house know-how, and where you can expect to keep selling a successful camera with minor modifications for ten years. Why would they trade that for the shark tank that is the lower medium digital camera market? I think that's where you are too dismissive of what you call "keep quiet I don't like change" responses; actually what I think those people mean (me included) is that it works very well for the company as it is, and they have little to gain and a lot to lose from jumping on the bandwagon of a highly competitive market with short product cycles.
Pretty much the only digital development I could see from Cosina is if someone at the company makes an in-house effort with their established SLR chassis and makes a version of it that has a platform for dropping a relatively low-cost sensor and electronics roughly in the place where the film went. That would open the way for producing the same electromechanical SLRs and rangefinders that Cosina has always been making, but with an affordable sensor in place of the film on an adapted platform. Think of an APS-sensor camera with classic SLR styling, like the Bessaflex series they had, where those old lenses actually work drop-in style. Spec-wise this would be a relatively low-end camera, the selling point would be classic lenses and operation; in other words another niche camera. What would kill it is probably low production numbers, though, and competition with the used digital camera market. That's why I doubt it will happen, because that market is full of capricious people that won't pay $1500 for a new crop-sensor, low-end camera if they can stick the same lens on a used 5D or Pentax and just live with the minor inconveniences like stop-down metering.
So if Cosina does build a digital camera, it will be for somebody else.
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David Murphy
Veteran
Cosina is wonderful. I do wish they would continue production of their LTM lenses however and keep some economy cameras and lenses in production such as the Bessa R, the fabled 50/2.5, etc. These are nice to have and also serve as a gateway to the hobby for those new to it and are not ready to spend the kind of money that the higher-end Cosina, Zeiss, or Leica product costs.
FWIW I remember reading on a Japanese website that Epson expected to sell 10,000 R-D1(s) cameras per year, but sales ended up being around 10,000 cameras in total. Unfortunately, I cannot remember for the life of me where I read it, and googling didn't find anything.