Robert Lai
Well-known
Ok, I can forsee how this discussion could easily take a nasty turn. So, if the moderators find it to become offensive, please delete this thread entirely.
Earlier this year, I worked at a family practice clinic in my old hometown of Scarborough, Ontario in Canada. The area has changed in its population profile. A lot of immigrants from Pakistan, Afghanistan, Sudan, Somalia and other primarily Muslim countries now live in the area. I soon found out that they all refused to take the antibiotic amoxicillin. Or, any other medication that was encapsulated with gelatin. They feared that gelatin could be made from pigs, which is unclean to them. So, I had to change their prescription to an alternative. I don't recall any of the Hindu patients asking for a prescription change though.
So, does this extend to photography with film? Film is coated with gelatin. According to Wikipedia: "Gelatin is derived from pork skins, pork, and cattle bones, or split cattle hides.[5] ".
Granted, with film photography you are not eating the stuff. But, you are touching it.
If anyone of the Islamic, Jewish, or Hindu faiths can enlighten me, it would be appreciated. I am not trying to start a religious war. I just want to know what is permitted or not by your beliefs.
Earlier this year, I worked at a family practice clinic in my old hometown of Scarborough, Ontario in Canada. The area has changed in its population profile. A lot of immigrants from Pakistan, Afghanistan, Sudan, Somalia and other primarily Muslim countries now live in the area. I soon found out that they all refused to take the antibiotic amoxicillin. Or, any other medication that was encapsulated with gelatin. They feared that gelatin could be made from pigs, which is unclean to them. So, I had to change their prescription to an alternative. I don't recall any of the Hindu patients asking for a prescription change though.
So, does this extend to photography with film? Film is coated with gelatin. According to Wikipedia: "Gelatin is derived from pork skins, pork, and cattle bones, or split cattle hides.[5] ".
Granted, with film photography you are not eating the stuff. But, you are touching it.
If anyone of the Islamic, Jewish, or Hindu faiths can enlighten me, it would be appreciated. I am not trying to start a religious war. I just want to know what is permitted or not by your beliefs.
Phil_F_NM
Camera hacker
The gelatin issue I've never heard of with regard to photography. I've been a photographer in many Muslim nations and I will say that the respect to culture and gender is a big thing. I learned back in 1998 in the UAE that I shouldn't take any photos of females without their male family members' consent. I respected that and never got beat up nor my camera confiscated or destroyed. When I was in Iraq in 2004/2005 I respected this as well but the rules were a little looser. As I was with the US Navy, I had a different role of protecting the identity of the people I photographed, so I actually did very little of that.
Back on topic though, I never saw any difference in handling film when working with people of the Islamic faith.
Phil Forrest
Back on topic though, I never saw any difference in handling film when working with people of the Islamic faith.
Phil Forrest
cz23
-
I am not associated with any orthodox faith, but I and most of my many vegan/vegetarian friends will not take medicine in gelatin capsules. There are some gelatin-free capsules available, so if capsule form is the only option, we transfer the contents to vegan capsules.
Incidentally, the same goes for flu shots and other inoculations that contain eggs. There is now an egg-free flu vaccine, though it's probably more due to allergies.
I can see how some faiths would object. Think of India and its reverence for cows. In its heyday, Kodak went through millions of pounds of cow bones per year. The accounts of their gelatin business are pretty gruesome.
Before starting to use film again, I wrestled with the issue of gelatin in film, but decided to go ahead. This article on the Adox web site, and other research, helped me reconcile it for myself.
John
Incidentally, the same goes for flu shots and other inoculations that contain eggs. There is now an egg-free flu vaccine, though it's probably more due to allergies.
I can see how some faiths would object. Think of India and its reverence for cows. In its heyday, Kodak went through millions of pounds of cow bones per year. The accounts of their gelatin business are pretty gruesome.
Before starting to use film again, I wrestled with the issue of gelatin in film, but decided to go ahead. This article on the Adox web site, and other research, helped me reconcile it for myself.
John
PKR
Veteran
The Hopi Nation doesn't like being photographed. This is certainly true of the elders. I don't have a lot of current experience with younger members of the tribe.
PKR
Veteran
I don't think it's bones that Kodak used in making gelatin for film production, but hooves are used. There were a number of papers written by Kodak Scientists regarding the quality of the clover the cows are (were) fed and the resulting issues with color balance in properly aged Kodachrome.
Darshan
Well-known
I am a Hindu, a vegetarian, and I use film and gelatin capsules.
I did ponder over the gelatin-in-film issue a few years ago and was disappointed to know of it, however; after doing some research I was satisfied to know that animals are not specifically killed to make film. Thinking of it the other way, we had no choice but to use film before digital came into existence and I cannot not use leather boots, belts etc. I am sure I hurt animals in other ways regardless of whether I use film or not, hence I haven't given up on using film and I don't regret it. You can call me an imperfect Hindu.
I am also a physician and know and accept that a lot of animals are sacrificed to further our science.
Regards,
Darshan
I did ponder over the gelatin-in-film issue a few years ago and was disappointed to know of it, however; after doing some research I was satisfied to know that animals are not specifically killed to make film. Thinking of it the other way, we had no choice but to use film before digital came into existence and I cannot not use leather boots, belts etc. I am sure I hurt animals in other ways regardless of whether I use film or not, hence I haven't given up on using film and I don't regret it. You can call me an imperfect Hindu.
I am also a physician and know and accept that a lot of animals are sacrificed to further our science.
Regards,
Darshan
raid
Dad Photographer
The Religion of Digital Photography is strongly opposed to Film Photography!
Robert Lai
Well-known
Well, my wife and kids are sick of me photographing them, so I've laid off. Now it's hills, trees and lakes.
I realize that a lot of cultures don't want to be photographed. Some believe that the camera captures a part of their soul.
Interesting that the Adox information says that even inkjet prints use gelatin. For a while, I was thinking that pure digital photography would be ideal if I was a devout Muslim.
I realize that a lot of cultures don't want to be photographed. Some believe that the camera captures a part of their soul.
Interesting that the Adox information says that even inkjet prints use gelatin. For a while, I was thinking that pure digital photography would be ideal if I was a devout Muslim.
KenR
Well-known
Ways around anything
Ways around anything
There are ways around just about anything - amoxicillin, for example comes as a flavored suspension for pediatric use. There are adults who cannot take pills (in my family) and so the pediatric suspension is often used for them. No gelatin capsules needed.
Ways around anything
There are ways around just about anything - amoxicillin, for example comes as a flavored suspension for pediatric use. There are adults who cannot take pills (in my family) and so the pediatric suspension is often used for them. No gelatin capsules needed.
raid
Dad Photographer
Navajo Indian adults don't want their photos taken. Kids are OK with it. This is their culture, I was told.
raid
Dad Photographer
karlin
Well-known
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PKR
Veteran
I don't think Navajo are a problem.
Many Hopi people believe a photo can steal their soul. I've never heard that it's not a problem with children?
BlackXList
Well-known
I know vegans who wouldn't use it, so I can see that some people would feel it was in opposition to their faith too.
I'm glad there are are more acceptable options for them.
I'm glad there are are more acceptable options for them.
Chris101
summicronia
PKR
Veteran
Upper vs Lower Moenkopi?
"Be reminded that while on Hopi you are considered a guest. Photographing, recording or sketching of villages and ceremonies are strictly prohibited. It is critical that guests obey all rules and regulations established by the villages."
http://itcaonline.com/?page_id=1162
It's been some time since I was in 4 corners. I spent some weeks there on a project. I didn't carry cameras into Lower Moenkopi until I knew everyone was indoors. And then, just photographed the homes. We had a polite understanding that I wouldn't break any rules. My fixer/guide was a news photographer who was Hopi, and grew up in Upper Moencopi.
raid
Dad Photographer
Chris101
summicronia
This is my grand daughter Evelyn, DiL Shannen and son, who is actually Mayan (Guatemalan.) Dine is their name for Navajo. Shannen (100% Dine) lives in Phoenix, but her family is from the Four Corners reservation.
Phil_F_NM
Camera hacker
There is no way in modern life to remove oneself from the consumption or use of animal products. One can only regulate their own intake or handling of something they don't like but that doesn't mean the trucker that drove their quinoa to whole foods or the local ayurvedic friendly market didn't have a big breakfast of bacon, sausage and eggs. Where one can draw the line is only at their own behavior but their consumption of anything they did not grow themselves is still easily within the scope of use of the animal.
Just be kind to each other and respect each others' beliefs, is what I believe and all we can do to make the earth a decent place to live.
Phil Forrest
Just be kind to each other and respect each others' beliefs, is what I believe and all we can do to make the earth a decent place to live.
Phil Forrest
x-ray
Veteran
In the 60's I learned of a remote colony of Mennonites in the mountains not to far from my home. At that time they wouldn't permit photographs and didn't particularly welcome outsiders. This group used no electricity, no inside plumbing, phones, gasoline powered anything and even no rubber tires.
Because of my interest in preserving the obscure cultures in my area I set out to get acceptance in this community with the hopes of making photography. It was a long process over several years before I became invisible to them. In time I photographed them at play and work over several years making only a few images and not over staying my welcome.
In time I recorded some beautiful images but things have changed. Dissent within the community resulted in it fracturing into two groups. The one in my area now has become very commercial and has restaurants, uses modern gasoline farm equipment opposed to the horses and mules of the 70's and before and drive black cars. They live in modern homes with air conditioning and all the modern conveniences we have. They raise cattle and tobacco commercially and have been quite successful.
The other half of the community moved to a remote area of Kentucky and preserve the traditions of the faith.
Follow the link to one of the images. http://www.rangefinderforum.com/rffgallery/showphoto.php?photoid=59114
Because of my interest in preserving the obscure cultures in my area I set out to get acceptance in this community with the hopes of making photography. It was a long process over several years before I became invisible to them. In time I photographed them at play and work over several years making only a few images and not over staying my welcome.
In time I recorded some beautiful images but things have changed. Dissent within the community resulted in it fracturing into two groups. The one in my area now has become very commercial and has restaurants, uses modern gasoline farm equipment opposed to the horses and mules of the 70's and before and drive black cars. They live in modern homes with air conditioning and all the modern conveniences we have. They raise cattle and tobacco commercially and have been quite successful.
The other half of the community moved to a remote area of Kentucky and preserve the traditions of the faith.
Follow the link to one of the images. http://www.rangefinderforum.com/rffgallery/showphoto.php?photoid=59114