Is "goggled" 21mm lens compatible w/ M9/MM framing and focusing?

[quadtones]

If anyone would know, Tom would. Or if any of you out there are using one of these, are the 21mm lenses that had "goggles" installed on compatible with the focusing and framing on an M9/MM? It occurred to me that the finder of the digital M cameras have slightly different magnification than the M2 and M4. Would they be expected to focus correctly? What frame lines would they bring up?

Thanks, in advance for the help making what, these days, would otherwise be an expensive cure for a GAS attack. As it is, I've always been intrigued by the option of not having to use an external finder--as Tom and others have often been pointed out, I seem to lose them or have them fall off.

 

[FrankS]

Sorry, I'm not an expert, but were there actually goggled 21mm lenses for Leica?

 

[johannielscom]

Don't think there were?

 

[quadtones]

They were all custom fit, as I recall, by a machinist/Leica repair expert in Toronto, at Tom's request. For the moment, I don't recall his full name, but I seem to recall his first name is/was Reiner...Tom had apparently come up with the idea, and had him convert a 21 f3.4 Super Angulon. I'm not sure how many were done, but they used the goggles from a 35mm goggled Summaron [I think] which, as I recall reduces finder magnification by 0.7x, and was designed for the M3 so as to be able to use the 50mm frame line for a 35mm lens so fitted.

As 0.7 x 35 = about 24.5 mm, I guess it was possibly close enough to work, if you used the space outside the 35 mm frame on an M6. I was wondering if this would work on an M9. I believe there's an old thread in which Tom wrote about it, but I've not located it, yet.

Not a cheap solution, if there are any around, but elegant.

 

[giulio stucchi]

IIRC a "custom" Tom A Elmarit 21 2.8 with goggle does exist and shows up for sale on the classifieds last year or the year before.

 

[Rob-F]

Reinhold Mueller, the Toronto man, I believe at Kindermann Canada. Yes it was Tom who came up with the idea. It is documented in Jonathan Eastland's Leica M Compendium Handbook of the Leica M System, pp. 98-99. The goggles were cannibalized from older Leitz wide angle lenses. The goggles from a 35mm lens that reduced the frame to 50mm size, so that the 35mm FOV could be seen within the 50mm framelines of the M3. That amounts to a reduction of 0.7x. A reduction from a 28mm frame to 21mm would be .75x, which is pretty close. So the goggles from a 35mm Summicron or Summaron suffice to shrink the 21mm FOV down to fit in the 28mm frameline. Actually, the view in the finder that falls within the 28mm framelines would come out to 22mm, but that is "close enough for government work" (as we used to say in the Air Force).

Now, if Tom will just tell us what he did with all those 35mm Summicrons that were separated from their goggles! They won't focus correctly by rangefinder without the goggles, but if the price is right, they (especially the Summarons) could be scale-focused (I think).

 

[quadtones]

Found it. This is the content of a 2009 post by Tom. You can do a search for: 21mm Super angulon goggles.

"The goggled 21f3.4 was born from the frustration of loosing expensive Leica finders. A friend of mine in Toronto made it up for me according to my specs. It is not an easy operation as you have to machine off material at the back of the lens and also remake the bayonet to engage 28 mm lines.
We made about a dozen of these in the early 90's (including a 21f2.8 Asph - nerve wracking as you had to put the whole lens in a lathe!). Sadly, I have none left - the last one, a black 21f3.4 went to a friend in Japan many years ago.
It worked quite well on older style M's (M2/M4/M4P) - but on the M6 and later, the shield inside the finder cut off too much and only gave you about a 24/25 view.
Today you are better off with a Bessa R4M as it has the 21 finder built in - and it is much brighter than the goggles + the regular finder of a M.
Tom"

 

[quadtones]

Yes, Reinhold Mueller. Thanks, Rob.

 

[Rob-F]

Then again, maybe the donor lenses could not be scale focused, if the back part of the mount went with the goggles. They might not even be mountable now. Maybe they are strictly donor lenses now, for the glass and other parts.

 

[Tom A]

Have no fear - no Summicrons or Summarons were harmed in the process! Reinhold had gotten a box of the goggles from Midland and used these.
As for using it on a M9 or later DRF - I don't know. On the M8 the shield in the finder of the camera blocked the view slightly (cut it down to about 23/24mm) and I suspect that the same shield exists in the M9 and later cameras.
All in all there were 11 or 12 Super Angulons made, a couple of Elmarit 21f2.8's and one, possibly two Elmarit Asph 21mm f2.8's.
Unfortunately Reinhold got sick and could no longer work - great loss to us all. It also stopped the idea for putting 180 Apo Telyt's in the Elmarit 135f2.8 mount - with rangefinder coupling. The 135 finder on the Elmarit 135 would have to be modified to bring up the 135 frame on a M4/M6 and would give about 176 -178 mm view!

 

[quadtones]

Thanks so much, Tom. Of course, this means that I may have to consider getting one that is currently available to me. As it is, the internal finder mask may or may be an issue, as all the M9 frame lines are a bit stingy and underestimate the field of view beyond a few feet focusing distance, so maybe it would be usable, using the outside edges of the finder, beyond the 28mm framelines. I may have to try it, and see.

 

[presspass]

Too bad about the 180/135 idea. It would have given us rangefinder nuts a longer lens without going to a Visoflex.

 

[Tom A]

There was a small series of 6-7 Apo Telyt 180's made for the US Navy in the 70's in a goggle version. Huge goggles too. I have seen a couple of them - never shot with one.

 

[quadtones]

Sad about this one. It's tempting, but obviously has something adrift inside. If I understand an earlier post, this was the only 21 ASPH that had goggles added.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/121893210189?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT

 

[Calzone]

Sad about this one. It's tempting, but obviously has something adrift inside. If I understand an earlier post, this was the only 21 ASPH that had goggles added.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/121893210189?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT

Norm,

If foreign matter it could be cleaned out, but also be careful about what looks to be a possible missing screw visible in some of the shots.

Cal

 

[quadtones]

Thanks, Cal, I'd missed that. If it didn't need service, the price would be in line for a 21 ASPH plus finder, but I think I'm going to pass. Now if it were to come down some more...

 

[Calzone]

Thanks, Cal, I'd missed that. If it didn't need service, the price would be in line for a 21 ASPH plus finder, but I think I'm going to pass. Now if it were to come down some more...

Norm,

A tempting find that I also saw on EBAY before this thread. If I didn't already own a 21/3.4 Super Elmar I would be all over this.

Anyways a rare item. I did see the one in the RFF classifieds too, but the asking price was crazy.

Cal