Is Kiev the most complex rangefinder camera ever made?

[zhang xk]

Hi,

Since I have fixed all the Soviet rangefinder cameras, Kiev, Fed, Zorki. I find the Kiev or Contax II is a much more complex camera than others. Is there a rangefinder camera that is more complex than a Kiev? It is probably the most complex rangefinder camera ever made. Even early Nikon did not copy the shutter mechanism which is the most complex part of the camera. Many cameras were sold well because they were more user friendly.

Some very complex mechanical watches are still being made today. And many people spent big money for those luxury watches. I think a Contax or a Kiev is the equal of top brand vintage watches in camera. What would be the cost if a Kiev II was made today? These are the same luxury mechanical items IMHO.

Cheers,

Zhang

 

[payasam]

The ill-fated Kodak Ektra, perhaps.

 

[Jocko]

Zhang and Paysam, I suspect you are both right - in as much as the Contax actually worked and the Ektra rarely did . As I understand it, the original Contax design had to circumvent Leitz patents. The relatively simple mechanics of the Leica had to be replicated or surpassed in ways which were inevitably much more complex. Zeiss deserve considerable credit for persisting with the project, as the Contax 1 proved famously unreliable. Post-war, both Leitz and Contax patents became void, enabling Nikon's designers to combine the best aspects of both.

I find it rather surprising that the Soviets did not attempt a similar process, which would surely have enhanced production and reliability.

Cheers, Ian

 

[Xmas]

The Contax wins on the shutter alone, Zeiss tended to overdesign, even into the early '60s.

Noel

 

[zhang xk]

Zhang and Paysam, I suspect you are both right - in as much as the Contax actually worked and the Ektra rarely did . As I understand it, the original Contax design had to circumvent Leitz patents. The relatively simple mechanics of the Leica had to be replicated or surpassed in ways which were inevitably much more complex. Zeiss deserve considerable credit for persisting with the project, as the Contax 1 proved famously unreliable. Post-war, both Leitz and Contax patents became void, enabling Nikon's designers to combine the best aspects of both.

I find it rather surprising that the Soviets did not attempt a similar process, which would surely have enhanced production and reliability.

Cheers, Ian

Hi Ian, payasam,

I never saw an Ektra. Does it also have a very complex shutter? The shutter curtains of Contax alone consist of many parts. They were meshed up with tiny brass blades.:bang: A Contax II has far more parts than a luxury watch.
I suspect that Nikon avoided the difficult work of trying to copy the shutter mechanism. The Soviets tried to improve the Contax II with a Kiev 5 that has a lever wind, and brighter view finder. But the camera is not pretty enough to attract buyers.
I might have answered my own question. The Kiev 5 with additional features may be a more complex rangefinder camera.

Cheers,

Zhang

 

[Jocko]

I have never seen an Ektra either Zhang! Fortunately Stephen Gandy has - here is an interesting link http://cameraquest.com/ektra.htm

In books on photography from the 1940s one often reads that the Ektra was the camera of the future, displacing both Contax and Leica - but it proved a heroic faliure.

Cheers, Ian

 

[rxmd]

An example for the opposite would be KMZ's Rodina project: a 35mm Contax-mount RF camera with 1:1 viewfinder, focal plane shutter with speeds from 1/1 to 1/1000 and a self timer, all in 200 parts - according to Princelle, "136 primary and 64 secondary".

 

[zhang xk]

I have never seen an Ektra either Zhang! Fortunately Stephen Gandy has - here is an interesting link http://cameraquest.com/ektra.htm

In books on photography from the 1940s one often reads that the Ektra was the camera of the future, displacing both Contax and Leica - but it proved a heroic faliure.

Cheers, Ian

Thanks Ian for the link. It certainly looks like a complex and precision camera. Those complex precision mechanical gears fascinate me. Those tiny and shining buttons are so cute. I am sorry to hear it was a failure.

Cheers,

Zhang

 

[zhang xk]

An example for the opposite would be KMZ's Rodina project: a 35mm Contax-mount RF camera with 1:1 viewfinder, focal plane shutter with speeds from 1/1 to 1/1000 and a self timer, all in 200 parts - according to Princelle, "136 primary and 64 secondary".

Waw! That is an amazing feat! I guess a Contax III may have more than 1,000 parts including those screws and a Sonnar 50/1.5 lens?

 

[zhang xk]

The Contax wins on the shutter alone, Zeiss tended to overdesign, even into the early '60s.

Noel

I guess those professioanl Zeiss engineers looked down upon those crude simple designs? They were used to deaign top grade compound microscopes.

Zhang

 

[VinceC]

Post-war, both Leitz and Contax patents became void, enabling Nikon's designers to combine the best aspects of both.

The early Nikons use a Leica-inspired shutter and speed controls, as well as Leica-inspired rangefinder. The lens mount was Contax-inspired, as was combining the viewfinder and rangefinder windows.

When the Soviets began assembling their own Kiev/Contax cameras in the late 1940s, the design was only 10-12 years old and was still close to being state-of-the-art. The Japanese companies, primarily Canon and Nikon, pushed competitive innovation, which led to rapid evolution in the personal camera field. Leitz accepted the challenge and introduced the M3.

 

[dll927]

It generally seems that the complexity and operation of the shutters was the weakness of the Contax-Kiev cameras. They are probably hard to repair or have repaired now because they are considered out-of-date. Leica too eventually stopped servicing the screw-mount cameras. And electronic shutters supposedly are more accurate in their timing.

Rather famously, Soviet quality control was sometimes a matter of how much vodka the comrades comsumed the night before.

As an organist, the debate between mechanical and electrical hits home. To this day, there are those who claim that mechanical (tracker) action organs are more friendly to key control by the player. But how many in the audience will know the difference? How many looking at pictures will see the difference? Do the mechanical watches keep better time than electronic ones?

Much of this is a matter of advances in technology. It's not to say that one or the other is better - just different ways of approaching a solution.

 

[John Robertson]

Sorry, I know I'm strange but I've never seen over-complexity as an asset or attraction. I'm just simple K.I.S.S. ????

 

[zhang xk]

It generally seems that the complexity and operation of the shutters was the weakness of the Contax-Kiev cameras. They are probably hard to repair or have repaired now because they are considered out-of-date. Leica too eventually stopped servicing the screw-mount cameras. And electronic shutters supposedly are more accurate in their timing.

......
Much of this is a matter of advances in technology. It's not to say that one or the other is better - just different ways of approaching a solution.

Hi,

Why people are interested in mechnaical watches? Because they involved tremendous effort, skill, and much longer time to make a complex luxury mechanical watch so that people think they have intrinsic value. A mechnical watch can never match a quartz for accuracy, but they still demand a much higher price. I think mechanical watches and cameras are all out of date, last generation products of the mechanical age.

Interestingly, efforts are still being made to make mechnaical watches with tourbillons, minute repreaters, etc. but people are dumping their fine mechanical cameras like trash. Maybe one day, people will proudly hang a Kiev II on his neck, wear a gold Patek Phillipe, and display a hand made b/w image for showing off.

Cheers,

Zhang

 

[zhang xk]

Sorry, I know I'm strange but I've never seen over-complexity as an asset or attraction. I'm just simple K.I.S.S. ????

Generally, the more complex a mechanical watch, the higher the price. It seems that watch fans are attracted by complex designs. I agree that Leica has a simple, effective,and clever shutter design. A Chinese Great Wall DF-2 medium format SLR has an even simpler, very clever,and reliable shutter design. But a Contax II's complex design intrigues me, although it may be over-deisigned.

I am not saying a Contax or Kiev is the best rangefinder ever made.

Cheers,

Zhang

 

[Jocko]

Sorry, I know I'm strange but I've never seen over-complexity as an asset or attraction. I'm just simple K.I.S.S. ????

Oh but John - isn't this just Wonderful? Doesn't your heart beat faster at its sheer, sublime ingenuity and insane beauty? Isn't perfectly functioning complexity the ultimate triumph of simplicity? -
http://japwatches.wordpress.com/2007/06/23/vacheron-constantin-tour-de-l’ile/

Incidentally, Zhang. RFF member Lynn is devoted to her Great Wall and has excellent results. I was recently present when a Hassleblad owner innocently asked "What is that, a Chinese Brownie?". For a moment I thought there would be bloodshed....

Cheers, Ian

 

[Xmas]

I use a beaten up Omega automatic from '50, it has been in salt water, but it still works ok.

When the big hand...

Noel

 

[rbiemer]

Here are some more photos of the Ektra:https://www.westlicht-auction.com/index.php?id=76816&acat=76816&_ssl=off
Scroll down a bit--it was lot 456.
I think it is an amazing machine but not one I'd care to have as my main RF!
Rob

 

[John Robertson]

Oh but John - isn't this just Wonderful? Doesn't your heart beat faster at its sheer, sublime ingenuity and insane beauty?
Incidentally, Zhang. RFF member Lynn is devoted to her Great Wall and has excellent results. I was recently present when a Hassleblad owner innocently asked "What is that, a Chinese Brownie?". For a moment I thought there would be bloodshed....

Cheers, Ian

It wouldn't be my heart that would beat faster, it would be my bank managers!!
I had a Great Wall DF2 about ten years ago, a case of close but no cocoanut, the lens was badly assembled with loose elements inside, and the mirror had smears of some sort of glue on it. If it had been properly made it might have been more successful (and useful!)
I just feel that this instantly out of date, throw away, electronic technofreak age is so wasteful of materials, the disposal of which is piling up huge problems for future generations. I saw a programme about some town in China where the world dumps its electronic garbage, the polution was unreal.

 

[ruben]

....Rather famously, Soviet quality control was sometimes a matter of how much vodka the comrades comsumed the night before.......

After taking note of your not quite original protest about Soviet quality control, had I be a RFF member of either Ukrainian or Russian nationality, I would feel myself offended to the depth of my bones, by this sentence, which is not much compatible with being RFF a multinational website.

Not that I am looking for a fight, but I couldn't keep silent either.

Ruben