Is Kiev the most complex rangefinder camera ever made?

[outfitter]

russian went to space, had great airplane tech - they were decades ahead of time in science - and west still make bad propaganda about ussr.

That is not really analogous; as a Russian scientist who worked only on military projects told me "the military got the best of everything and the civilian market got junk". When you separate consumer products from the laws of supply and demand, marketing won't help. Don't overestimate marketing - a better product will usually edge out the competition in a free market. The catch is how you define "better". Frequently the market defines "better" as cheaper or more choices not necessarily as better technically.

Michael

 

[nzeeman]

Nzeeman, how do you know?

Lets take your example. From the Mid-60s Skodas were amongst the most popular cars in Britain. In the 1980s they seemed to be everywhere because as one famous headline had it they "handle like a Porsche 911, cost only £4,200 and are more fun than a GTI". The motoring press were invariably respectful. In the early 1970s Moskvitch outsold Japanese manufacturers in the UK. Ladas, which replaced them, sold 30,000 cars a year. Even Wartburg and Yugo did pretty well. Today - of course - Skoda are up there with the best.

In the 1980s Zenit and Praktica outsold all other SLR brands and in the 70s Soviet-made TVs, radios, binoculars, telescopes and more were popular and widely liked. My family ran a grocers - amongst our most cherished lines were Czech chocolates, Roumanian jam and the frankly superb Bulgarian preserves. The problem - which was exactly that faced by British manufacturers - was a faliure to invest and to develop goods. Others ultimately made them better and cheaper.

I realise that you will never miss a chance to voice your particular obsessions, but it is always best to know what you are talking about first.

Cheers, Ian

if you liked those products from east that much - how then you started to make so many jokes in your countries. every movie , every historical tv show - you always make fun of east europe, russia, and even germany. if there is someone who is untolerant to other countries its britain and its people. if you think of us eastern people as equal to you -why do i have to be strapped to my underwear if i come to your countries. you people treat us like animals - i have to wait for visas for days just to get out of country. please dont sell me that sweet talk when you know the truth - 99% of people in your country will tell that russian cameras and cars are crap.
sorry fot OT i will not continue anymore.

 

[Jocko]

Nzeeman, what I stated was simple historical fact.

I regret to say I lack your fantastic knowledge of the world. Have you ever been to Britain? How many British people do you know? The simple facts prove that the UK was one of the very largest markets for Eastern bloc goods.

But that really isn't the point, is it? Judging by your recent posts, you need to hate like others need to breathe. I have no idea what private inadequacies you are working out, but I hope for your sake that you succeed.

Cheers, Ian

 

[Spider67]

Quality and the rest...

Quality and the rest...

I suspect that Soviet quality control had more to do with making quotas than making everything work "precisely". I've tested about 40 J-3's and J-8's; four of five needed the shims changed. The focus on most was "close", but some where way off. One required a 3mm shim to be added, several required more than 1mm.

The Helios-103 and Menopta 53/1.8 were better on collimation, but the machining of the mount was all over the place. Some required filing to fit a Kiev, others required filing to fit a Contax, some went right onto a Nikon. Again, lack of standardization.

In the United States, we always joked that you wanted a car built on a Wednesday. Farthest away from the past weekend's hangover, and far enough from Friday where they were not thinking about the upcoming weekend bash. Anybody else have a sense of humor?

Thanks Brian! As I wanted to add that besides the ethical issues the statement critisized was also misleading which I would conider bad for a forum dedicated gaining knowledge on these Cameras and the circumstances of their production.
As Brian said it was fulfilling quotas and things like the normal loss of a percantage due to production failure was considered ideologically impossible. As a dirctor of a plant you could easily be made responsible for squandering precious resources or even sabotage. There not enough room for the necessary citations but it's as least as founded as the "lack-of-quality-due-to-vodka" theoreme.
Thanks for standing up Ruben! I am not Russian I am of Bulgarian origin....but still I felt a bit bothered...Ok it was a bad joke but the circumstance of prodcution diserve some research

 

[zhang xk]

Ah, I misunderstood. I will try to find images of other versions, DF-3,4,5. I only have two versions of the DF, a DF, and DF-2. Lynn sounds like a Chinese name Lin. Is she a Chinese?

Cheers,

Zhang

Here are some images of Great Wall DF 120 SLRs. They are the opposite of Kiev-Contax in all respects, yet they could produce superior images with a good lens. A wide angle and telephoto lens, and a new shutter with a higher top speed and lower speed was planned, but the designer was transferred to another unit.🙁
Here you can see that the one with a DF-2 logo is an economy version. It is not as well made, and it has a ground galss screen that is very dim. These are sold now for about $10-20 used. DF-5 with a selftimer and a hot shoe is the top end camera. It was sold a few years ago for $200 IIRC. These images are borrowed from sy916.

Cheers,

Zhang

 

[nzeeman]

Nzeeman, what I stated was simple historical fact.

I regret to say I lack your fantastic knowledge of the world. Have you ever been to Britain? How many British people do you know? The simple facts prove that the UK was one of the very largest markets for Eastern bloc goods.

But that really isn't the point, is it? Judging by your recent posts, you need to hate like others need to breathe. I have no idea what private inadequacies you are working out, but I hope for your sake that you succeed.

Cheers, Ian

i am not hating anyone - i just hate injustice. and all this talk about japan, germany and russia(you read my posts so you know what i talk about) in last few weeks made me defend them. i just dont like that type of propaganda and i try to open people's eyes. evryone will agree that japan and germany were evil in wwii that hitler and stalin were greates evil minds in history. and from timt to time people talk about that. why you never talk about millions of civilian killed in vietnam and korea by USA or millions of people killed in english colonies in asia, or about bombing dresden by "beautiful and perfect" england, or civilians killed in serbia in 1999!!! and that happened 2 years before new millenium. do you see how crazy is all that? or you are all blind. i know its offtopic and i dont mind even if i am banned from rff. i dont hate anybody i just want to talk about bad things in whole world and not just in non west part.
cheers

 

[greyhoundman]

The past is past. Change the future if you want prattle on.

 

[Xmas]

nzeeman
Dresden was making optics for the jagertiger, it would have written off more T-34, there was not an equivalent jagerpanzer for 10 years, the Ru asked their allies, the USAAF and the RAF had several goes at it.
Fewer jagertigers
The allies were desperate to shorten the war, it was not the people in the death camps it was the risks of new weapons, or use of nerve gas or worse.
Noel

 

[nzeeman]

nzeeman
Dresden was making optics for the jagertiger, it would have written off more T-34, there was not an equivalent jagerpanzer for 10 years, the Ru asked their allies, the USAAF and the RAF had several goes at it.
Fewer jagertigers
The allies were desperate to shorten the war, it was not the people in the death camps it was the risks of new weapons, or use of nerve gas or worse.
Noel

well read some historic facts about 120 000 civilians that died in that town - if their target was factory why did they burned city to the ground? i must say you are all brainwashed - read kurt vonnegut a bit more he explained it all (not only about dresden but about all brainwashed west).
and btw first concentration camps were britains invention
read this if you like
www.boer.co.za/boerwar/hellkamp.htm

 

[greyhoundman]

You have a very twisted sense of what the war was about, and how it had to be conducted.
Just how would they have missed the civvies?

The innocent are always going to pay a price in any conflict. Just because they are in the middle with no where to go. Such is life on this planet.

BTW. My father flew bombers out of England during the war.
You speak bravely from a distance. 😉

 

[nzeeman]

You have a very twisted sense of what the war was about, and how it had to be conducted.
Just how would they have missed the civvies?

The innocent are always going to pay a price in any conflict. Just because they are in the middle with no where to go. Such is life on this planet.

BTW. My father flew bombers out of England during the war.
You speak bravely from a distance. 😉

i dont speak bravely i just tell that there is no good and bad side in any war - war is about money and only money. and i wouldnt be too proud if someone from my family were in the war. i just think people who go to war are more than stupid. nobody can force you to kill other people if you dont want. so if someone was in war = he is a killer.

 

[VinceC]

... or civilians killed in serbia in 1999!!! ... i dont hate anybody i just want to talk about bad things in whole world and not just in non west part.

nzeeman,
I think all peoples and countries have done their share of bad things, as you put it. In 1996 my wife and I both visited mass graves in and around Srebrenica, Bosnia, and I have interviewed a number of children, both Bosniak and Serb, whose parents were killed in the Bosnian war. My wife was particularly struck by the year-old corpses of men and boys at Sreberenica whose rotting hands were still tied behind their rotting backs by rotting ropes.
The leadership of Serbia might have spent the 1990s trying to help Europe achieve peace. Unfortunately, this did not happen.

It's a lot less depressing to just talk about old cameras, don't you think?

 

[Sonnar Brian]

NZEEMAN: why do you keep piling this pure CRAP up on this forum?

You never miss an oppurtunity to get up on your pedestal and RANT.

 

[Oldprof]

American photographers frequently criticize FSU camera makers for their for their questionable quality control, but I think the Soviets outperformed American camera makers by a large margin. It's true that early Soviet 35mm designs copied Leica and Contax models, but most American 35mm cameras were aimed at beginners and rank amateurs. The Argus C3 was the most successful, but had a limited features and was klunky and unergonomic in the extreme. By the 1950s U.S. camera makers had pretty much abandoned the quality 35mm field, except for Kodak's Retina cameras which were produced in Germany.

 

[nzeeman]

nzeeman,
I think all peoples and countries have done their share of bad things, as you put it. In 1996 my wife and I both visited mass graves in and around Srebrenica, Bosnia, and I have interviewed a number of children, both Bosniak and Serb, whose parents were killed in the Bosnian war. My wife was particularly struck by the year-old corpses of men and boys at Sreberenica whose rotting hands were still tied behind their rotting backs by rotting ropes.
The leadership of Serbia might have spent the 1990s trying to help Europe achieve peace. Unfortunately, this did not happen.

It's a lot less depressing to just talk about old cameras, don't you think?

i absolutely agree that its lot less depressing - but the world is made of nice and not nice things. i spent whole 90s here in f***ed up country annd i know all that happened - but dont forget that everything serbs did - muslims and croats did too. i dont agree with anyone of them. but not only serbs - serbs muslims and croats together might spend 90s better. they are all guilty for ruining one whole generation's lifes. children didnt have chocolate, and even milk in those years. babies were drinking some kind of instant milk. yes its depressing but it also happened and we cant erase that and live in our happy present and pretend nothing happened.

 

[Sonnar Brian]

NZEEMAN:

How about you find a good political forum and go preach it there?

This is a camera forum.

I know enough about history, and I don't need you to preach it to me.

 

[nzeeman]

NZEEMAN: why do you keep piling this pure CRAP up on this forum?

You never miss an oppurtunity to get up on your pedestal and RANT.

and you never miss oportunity to tell people this :
"The Russian lenses have to be collimated for the Leica standard. The Russian lenses are built to the Contax focal length standard, slightly different from the Leica's."
you wrote that thousand times and sent same examples of adjusted lens by you. so im piling crap and you pile your crappy advertising messages for yourself and try to get money for adjusting peoples "unadjusted" lens.

 

[VinceC]

I'm with Brian.
I visit here to get away from all the **** in the world.

 

[Sonnar Brian]

I don't need the money. I do it more as a favor. Ask anyone who as asked me to adjust a lens.

If the Soviet lenses had been adjusted correctly in the first place, I would not have to spend my time working on them.

And I do not need a little ASSHOLE telling me this.

 

[zhang xk]

O.K. Thanks everyone for an enjoyable discussion. I thought there could be a flame war about cameras. The current development was beyond my imagination. Let us end the thread if there is no more to say about the marvelous design of Contax or Kiev rangefinder cameras. I prefer specific analysis such as a camera with a s/n xxxx has some strange problems, and how it was resolved.

Do you agree?:bang:

Cheers,

Zhang