Is Leica hitting notes only a dog can hear?

kevin m said:
Leica is evidently committed to producing the best lenses ever made for the 35mm format, cost be damned. Kudos to their engineering department for reaching that objective. It's one hell of a feat to engineer an entire range of lenses that are, in technical terms, nearly flawless.

But here's the rub: What's the point? The lenses are designed to be used on cameras using the M-mount, which are at their best, in the popular view, in handheld, available light use, which often means low shutter speeds, no tripod and other factors which contribute to a less than technically perfect image. Negating, to some degree, the hard-won advantage of these new lenses.

Get a better technique, learn to handhold down to 1/8 or 1/4 second and realize the difference. Elbows in, aim/compose, focus, breath, stop, squeeze.

kevin m said:
Now, in the twilight of the film M bodies, and with the digital M concept still unproven, Leica offers a line of lenses that have no equal from a technical standpoint. Again, what's the point? Use the cameras as they're intended to be used and much of that advantage disappears. And, truthfully, in most cases the advantage, even when it's visible, contributes nothing essential to any given image.

Twilight of film M bodies, says who? I haven't heard of the demise of the MP or MP3 yet, it's possible though. Someone has to set the bar for quality lenses be it Leica, Zeiss, CV, etc. Each Leica "series" summitar, summicron, summilux, asph. etc gives the photog a choice in character to choose from. New lenses are always more expensive than the last no matter the manufacturer, esp the newer asph. lenses, if you don't like the footprint or the price you do have choices.

With the inclusion of the M8 digital, the recent asph. lenses are shining, maybe even more so than with film :eek:

Todd
 
?

?

x-ray said:
Sorry to burst some bubbles and I know some of you will think I'mm full of BS but Leica hasn't has any superiority since the mid 50's to early 60's. If any company really had a superiority tjhen every pro would use them. In the 50's when the Nikon SP came out Leica met their competition. When the Nikon F came out the competition kicked their a$$. There was such a mass exodous from leica they hardly knew what hit them. By the mid 70's Leica was only a small part of the pro kit. By the 80's Canon with the F1 and Nikon owned the market.


I respect your views because they come from experience, but I would like to point out that

a. Clients do not insist on Nikon or Canon or Pentax or Olympus, any more than they would insist on Leica.

Why?

Because for them, it's the composition, concept, creative direction, decisive moment, etc. that matters.

If they have to deliver a car brochure, they need someone who knows how to shoot cars. Whether he uses Nikon or Canon, who cares? That's the photographers' problem-- the client just wants the pictures.

So this is not a point which should be used to disparage Leica (or Nikon or Canon or Pentax or Olympus for that matter)


b. Why did pros choose Nikon and Canon?

It's obvious isn't it? Nikon and Canon got it. Leica didn't. SLR's I mean. Once SLR's became practical, incorporated autofocus, zoom lenses, motor drives, multipoint metering, weather sealing, etc. it just made them the best all-around tools for professional work.

Of course, one could argue that for street photography, theatre photography, etc. Leica was the better tool. But if you have only one camera bag, how many cameras can you carry?

35 mm SLR, regardless of brand, was the tool of choice for the pro photographer.

Again, this does not mean Leica was worse than Nikon or Canon from a quality perspective. But certainly 35 mm SLR was better than 35 mm RF from a general usability perspective.

While we can use this to disparage Leica as a camera manufacturer, I think it would be unfair, as no other non-Japanese manufacturer (Contax, etc.) could match Nikon or Canon or Pentax or Olympus for SLR's.


c. As for whether Leica lenses are better than Canon/Nikon lenses, I think the objective thing to do would be to run tests on an optical bench and see for yourself. However, what is true is that lab results may not equate real-world results, camera shake is the great leveller.

But if shooting wide-open is important to you, I would suggest that the Leica lenses are potentially better, simply because the lenses are better corrected and the lack of mirror slap lab may result in less fuzzy shots esp at low speeds. However, if you're not enlarging to 20x30", if the picture is to be printed in a newspaper, then it probably doesn't matter.

d. I agree one should not choose lenses based on Internet reviews. Neither should one choose lenses based on photodo ratings. But if one cannot test lenses over an extended period of time before buying, then the next best thing is to learn to read the MTF curves, understand the optical design to see where the compromises, understand what is important (not just resolution, but also size, weight, build quality, ease of use), try to examine factors such as flare, vignetting, distortion, bokeh, etc. from other peoples' shots.

As Dante Stella says, most lenses are better than most photographers. Frankly, for most shots up to 8x10, almost any lens designed after the 70s will produce a decent printable picture. But we always want more than that, if possible.
 
Dude, Check this out. This is hybride film/digital camera technology from 13 years ago:
http://www.mir.com.my/rb/photography/companies/nikon/htmls/models/htmls/slr9294.htm#DCS410420460

DCS-420frontview.jpg


True these were made from Nikon (and later Canon) film bodies, but they only worked as digital cameras -- not hybrid in use. These were not user modifications, rather, they were cameras produced and sold as such. I used one, a Nikon/Kodak NC2000e, for a couple of years. 1.3 megapixels! Woo hoo!
 
Last edited:
So many leica lenses are not the sharpest nor the best lenses on earth. Only a marketing victim will believe Leica is commited to "producing the best lenses in the world".
 
saxshooter said:
http://www.mir.com.my/rb/photography/companies/nikon/htmls/models/htmls/slr9294.htm#DCS410420460

DCS-420frontview.jpg


True these were made from Nikon (and later Canon) film bodies, but they only worked as digital cameras -- not hybrid in use. These were not user modifications, rather, they were cameras produced and sold as such. I used one, a Nikon/Kodak NC2000e, for a couple of years. 1.3 megapixels! Woo hoo!

To be fair, the DMR is no more "hybrid in use" than the Nikon/Kodak cameras. The Nikon versions were apparently just film cameras with a digital back mounted via a single screw. The focusing screen was specific to the digital back, but otherwise, the bodies were unmodified film bodies. The fact that Kodak apparently only sold their backs attached to a camera doesn't really change the fact that the DMR is an existing Kodak product refined and adapted to Leica bodies, hardly a "Leica innovation." A Kodak innovation sold to Leica is more accurate.

For the record, I recently purchased a Leica body because nothing else did the job the way I wanted it done. I'm sure Leica lenses will follow, so I am *not* trying to bash Leica here.
 
NB23 said:
So many leica lenses are not the sharpest nor the best lenses on earth. Only a marketing victim will believe Leica is commited to "producing the best lenses in the world".

Are you suggesting the O.P's main point is null and void :)

I'd say that from my perspective as an amateur photographer, the better the lens, the better the photo, *all else being equal.* For example, if I take two photos of a local church, I really prefer the one showing the details on the front doors over the one that has a muddy mess where there should be two angels entwined. It really doesn't matter whether the details are muddy because of the poor lens or camera shake or poor exposure. If I can rule out one or more factors, I do. Good lenses help do this.

Obviously, there is more to an image than sharpness, and there is also more to good lenses than sharpness. Speed, build quality, ease of use, durability, size, weight, all these are factors people use in lens buying decisions, in addition to image quality. There's lots of room to improve lenses besides image quality, but why not improve that factor while you are improving everything else? It adds value to the lens, which adds to the price the buyer is willing to pay, which makes more money for the seller. Who wants to buy a brand new lens when it isn't optically any better than a 50-75 year old version? Who would pat Leica on the back for that? I personally see the need outweighing the cost in the near term, but a day will surely come when I replace a 50 year old lens with a newer one for easily justifyable reasons. I know if I had a fogged and streaked Leitz 50, I would be looking at new lenses with more attention.
 
x-ray and pablito have made excellent points, and I don't think anyone would dispute that the "technical quality" (however one assesses that) of a lens is the determining factor making a good photo; in some cases it may be of no importance, e.g. when a great photo is made with a pinhole camera.

But the question in the original post was about why Leica seems to be expending so many resources on optics, wouldn't they be better off broadening their product range, getting into the "mainstream" of digital photography, etc.

While I think it's a question of interest, I don't think it's really that important. From a branding standpoint, it's something that Leica feels is necessary. I happen to agree with that. I may differ over the degree of importance, but as Leica doesn't have size and market share on their side, their brand is one of their chief assets.

There really are very few secrets in still camera optical manufacturing. If Leica fades into obscurity, crushed by the financial/marketing muscle of the bigger boys, then so be it. It will be a real loss, but there will be many great photos made with other gear.

I personally believe Leica will be very active in broadening their portfolio. That's just a feeling, I'll wait with everyone else to see what unfolds.
 
I suspect that how Leica plans to "broaden its base" to reach less affluent photographers is not to introduce lower-priced cameras itself (much as we'd like that)... but rather to license its highly-prestigious brand name to other manufacturers, as it already is doing to some extent.

To keep that brand name prestigious, though, Leica needs to maintain a presence in the exclusive best-of-the-best realm.

You could almost think of its whole investment in the development of superlative equipment as being simply a marketing expenditure for its brand-licensing program -- which, if handled properly, could yield greater returns than the photo manufacturing business.

If that guess is right, it's good news for photographers in meaning that Leica would have an incentive to keep manufacturing its most distinctive product line -- M cameras and lenses -- even if that line itself weren't especially profitable.

The bad news is that this wouldn't provide much incentive for Leica to make its products more affordable. If anything, the reverse might be true -- the owners might see the cachet of the Leica brand as being enhanced by its exclusive status as something so good that most people can't afford it.
 
I see 2 problems: Leica spending so much effort on optical quality for a camera that takes 135 film when image quality is much greater with a larger format film camera, and Leica getting into digital with it's 18 month or so product cycle when Leica's strength is in its long-lived camera products: 70 year old Leica IIIa's are still perfectly functional. On digital, I think that Leica should design/engineer for upgradibility of the digital sensor to be really successful in this area, otherwise the super high quality, long-lived body doesn't make so much sense. I think.
 
Last edited:
I (largely) abandoned SLRs for RFs several years back for one reason: I felt the former setup was actually holding me back from the images I wished to make. This wasn't about a quest for Excalibur; I had simply reached the point where the gestalt of the SLR experience wasn't doing it for me where it counted. Did the switch in gear improve my photography? In a way, it has, but it has little to do with MTF charts and such. And it has little to do with brand names (I chose Konica over Leica for the most pragmatic of reasons, besides really liking the Hexar overall: I could put together a two-body, three-lens system for about $600 more than the cost of a new M7 body at the time). It's simply about how I like to work with a camera, how I visualize things, and how much I'm willing to carry. And, to make all this matter, I have to bring something of my own to the party, as it were: the ability to get at least decent results with most any camera, whether I love it or loathe it.

The quest for the best hasn't exclusively been a "Leica thing"; Konica, along with most of the usual suspects, has proven its mettle over time, although not as consistently perhaps as Leitz/Leica or Zeiss. But it's the M-body gestalt (almost regardless of who made the particular M body) that I now truly "get". I've also "gotten" the idea of lenses that can wring the most out of a frame of 35mm film, and since I can generally handhold a rangefinder steady at lower shutter speeds than most any SLR not equipped with a stabilization system that would make a BMW jealous, high lens performance, without making a fetish of it, does mean something to me. The fect that I can now get better-than-SLR-lens performance in a smaller and lighter package simply clinches it. And, yes, MF gives you a "cubic inches" advantage over 35mm, but it's like comparing a Hemi 'Cuda and a Lotus Elise: one excels in the quarter mile, while the other rules the backroads. (And yet another cross-reference gets gratuitously tossed out...)

So a Leica isn't a silver bullet (and even if it was, it won't help much if you're a terrible shot...apologies for yet another firearms reference). Most of us here do, or should, grok that much. But the camera/lens combination, the "form-factor," works in a way that makes a noticable difference in how a photograph is worked out in the mind's eye. Whether this works for good or ill depends on the person picking up the camera. You get out of it what you put in.


- Barrett
 
Last edited:
OK, I'll bite: I am pretty much in the same boat you are, high end clients, big assignments and all that, full time. But..I am 39 so you have some years on me.

I had never put a single roll through and only held a Leica a few times up until a few months ago. But in discussing my Kodachrome project with David Alan Harvey a few months ago, he advised that if I truly wanted to do the film justice, I might want to try a Leica and the best glass I could afford. So I caved and got an M6, 28/2 aspheric and 50 1.4 aspheric lenses. A few hundred rolls later, these lenses pretty much wipe the floor with 90% of anything out there. This is not years old information, this is as of a few weeks ago. I have a good selection of Nikon's best glass and most of Canon's best L glass for my digital system. The look of the these two Leica aspherics are in another league.

I still use my 28mm 2.8 AIS for lower contrast and landscape types of shooting as I use the 45 2.8 that is permanently mounted on one of two FM3A cameras, but the M6 goes everywhere, and I mean *everywhere* with me. It is small, light and looks like a point and shoot to most people, but jeeeeesus...the glass is insane. I see critical detail with that 28mm Summicron at F2 right to the corners, I have never seen that with any other wide lens, I knew this lens was good, but not *that* good, it blows my mind.

So what does that give me?

Confidence to embrace any shooting situation that I may encounter with no regard to pushing the limits of the lens and compromising the image quality. I often walk the streets with the M6, the other lens in my coat pocket, a small light meter on the inside one and even a tiny bogen table top tripod and a cable release in the other.

Of course I can not use the Leica on everything, but for what I got it for, it has no equal...especially optically.



x-ray said:
No one cares more tha I do about my photography because it's my living. I've been a full time Leica user for four decades but I'm not married to leica and I use a wide variety of cameras up to 8x10 and a variety of 35mm and digital equipemnt. I work for a variety of major corporations, Exxon, Phillips Electronics, Union Carbide, and many others plus having shot assignments for Esquire, Life, News Week, AP,UPI, Parade Magazine and many many more. My career has depended on the image quality and more important my creativity and ability to meet deadlines with the goods.

Sorry to burst some bubbles and I know some of you will think I'mm full of BS but Leica hasn't has any superiority since the mid 50's to early 60's. If any company really had a superiority tjhen every pro would use them. In the 50's when the Nikon SP came out Leica met their competition. When the Nikon F came out the competition kicked their a$$. There was such a mass exodous from leica they hardly knew what hit them. By the mid 70's Leica was only a small part of the pro kit. By the 80's Canon with the F1 and Nikon owned the market. The lenses Nikon and canon have and do make to this day are every bit as good and in some cases superior to Leica or Leicaflex glass. Every maker has particular lenses that excell and some that are dogs and leica is no exception. Even the Nikon glass for the old SP was on par or better in some cases than anything Leica made at the time. I know this form real world experience with these cameras and glass not something I read on someones website.

When I started I picked leica over Nikon S because it was more available and my mentor was a leica user. I picked M's because they wereeasier to focus under difficult lighting and there were faster wide angle lenses. Later I added Nikon F's and never felt there was any real difference in glass in general. I loved my 21 3.4 super angulon and 35 summilux v1. In the mid 70's I had a 1.2 Nictilux and liked it but I felt my 24 Nikkor 2.8, Micro 3.5 50, 85 1.8 and 105 2.5 were superior to Leicas lenses. I also loved the Nikkor 180 2.8 that walked all over my 200 tellyt and visoflex.

Now i still use 2 Leica MP's and M6 plus on rare moment I pull out my M2 and M3 but I still shoot my F2 and Nikkor glass. I also use some Canon EOS film equipment to take advantage of my Canon L glass that I use on my 1DsII bodies. In my estimation I would say if there is any sueriority in glass it would be Canon for the 24 1.4, 35 1.4, 85 1.2, 135 2, 200 1.8, 400 2.8 and 600 4 lenses not to mention the three TSE lenses, 24, 45 and 90.

Now let's add in the current Zeiss glass. I own two of the new ZM lenses, 25 and 35,and feel the 35 ZM is the finest M 35 that I've ever used and feel the 25 is without question the finest 24/25 on the market. I would also add to the mix the CV glass that gives both Leica and Zeiss a real run for much less money.

The choices of equipment have'nt bee casual decisions. It's been based on real use and discussions with other respected professioanls not based on what i read in a review from the internet or any place else. The loss is too great it I don't deliver the work to make my please my clients. Clients like I work for can hire anyone in the world so I have to deliver the work that is as good or better than the others. My clients don't care what I shoot with and I have never lost a job because i didn't use one brand or another. No one cares in the real world and if there was a true superiority they would certainly dictate what each of us use.

I know some of you will disagree and I respect that and hope you'll respect my opinion based on experience.
 
"But the question in the original post was about why Leica seems to be expending so many resources on optics, wouldn't they be better off broadening their product range, getting into the "mainstream" of digital photography, etc."

Leica cannot fight in the mainstream. Not enough $$ to take on Canon.

On the other hand, don't you consider the new releases of digital compacts, 4/3 cameras and ZLR's to be mainstream cameras?
 
I am hardly one to tell such a successful operation like Leica how to do business, but I think in many ways they have it right. Their niche is essentially the highest-end of the photo business. This is what makes them what they are.

They never really had a huge part of the "professional" market. That was dominated by 4X5 press cameras like Crown Graphic and Rollei's in the Leica screw mount era, and Nikon F's in the Leica M era (and occasionally Spotmatics as well as Canon SLR's later, etc.). "Miniature" cameras like Leica's had some following among the magazine writers that had to travel and do their own photography and by necessity needed something simpler and more portable than a press camera. Most of them probably would have prefered to have a professional along with a press camera. (I've known these folks personally -- family members!)

So the Leica was a high-end enthusiast camera, with a strong appeal to the arty crowd as well. It was, without doubt, a superior photographic tool in the 35mm format from the late 20's to the early 50's with few peers (Zeiss Contax being the main counterbalance). Leica chose to stay on this path even in the fortunate era we live in now where one can buy a capable camera on a working man's wage.

A fatal marketing mistake made by many companies is harming golden brand names by down marketing them. There are whole books written on this subject for business school types, but the point is that Leica has expertly preserved their brand-name precisely by not going high tech and focusing supremely on quality, even quality that exceeds reasonable expectation. Yes they are damn good at what they do, they may even be better than they need to be, but that is what their customers like.

I cannot afford a modern Leica, but if I could I would not want a dumbed down "Voigtlander" like camera made by Leica. If I had a new Leica, I would want something like an MP and a Summilux! If I had the kind of wealth that made such a purchase a casual expense I would not hesitate to buy one -- why would I fiddle with anything else! My point is that a downscale Leica would have little appeal to a consumer base -- it is not special, it destroys the brand name, and subjects the company to intense competition.
 
All other things being equal photographers would prefer a higher resolving lens to a lesser one. The question is how much more would you pay for a lens that is say 10% better - 10% more, 100% more, 1000% more? If price where no object every manufacturer would produce lens far superior to what is now available but who would purchase a $10,000. lens -or for that matter a $2400.+ 50mm prime? What is the magic optimum number for $/performance for a top tier lens line?

Canon is reaching the point with digital where the chips will exceed the lens lines performance parameters. The Canon wide range is already not up to the task. So maybe there is a future for Leica level quality in "35mm" digital but probably at a lower price point. 35mm format 22MP or 30MP cameras may become affordable, but what will a lens cost that can resolve that number of lines in a 24 x 36mm or smaller area? I think the lens will cost more then the camera because it's still an opto-mechanical device not governed by Moore's law.

Leica needed to bring the M into the digital realm to survive but it still faces big challenges in creating a viable niche for itself going forward. Leica has an impressive product line but I think one of it's biggest challenges is controlling costs. Maybe a Chinese manufacturing source -Zeiss is producing ZM lens which are competitive with Leica on quality at a much lower albeit still lofty price point. The super high res chips of tomorrow will require Leica level lens quality but the market will demand it at Canon L level prices (which have been escalating as well).
 
Last edited:
David Murphy said:
I am hardly one to tell such a successful operation like Leica how to do business, but I think in many ways they have it right. Their niche is essentially the highest-end of the photo business. This is what makes them what they are.

Successful? How many people on this forum purchase new Leicas? A company has to sell new gear to survive. The Leica niche is now the high end of the 35mm film market (the M8 hasn't garnered a huge market share). Not exactly a large and growing segment.

Innovative? Maybe in the 1950's. But now they are painfully behind in the core technologies that are needed to compete in the photo market.

I still use 35mm film gear. But I generally reach for my medium or large format cameras when I really want high quality.

What to do? Leica doesn't have the resources and expertise to become a real player in digital photography. And the Leica brand is losing cachet in the photo market. So perhaps they should leverage their expertise in optics and sell lenses in Canon and Nikon mounts. It's a much larger niche and they actually might be able to make some money.
 
I don't think that leica can just start making nikon and eos lenses - they have to get a licence and pay a fee first. I can't see canon granting leica a licence to produce Eos lenses that potentially could blow theirs out of the water, properly compatible R series lenses on a 1DS mkII could be a killer combination for some work. But I also couldn't see Leica coming up with a fast AF system that would give them the in to the wider DSLR market, especially as they like heavyweight construction and fast AF depends on light weight plastic components within the lens.
 
The question is how much more would you pay for a lens that is say 10% better - 10% more, 100% more, 1000% more?

Excellent point. At some point, price DOES matter, no matter what your income. A new 35mm Aspherical Summilux costs about $3,400; a new Voigtlander 40mm Nokton about $400. I think it's fair to say that there is not a $3,000 gap in their performance.
 
Back
Top Bottom