Huss
Veteran
Because it may be easier for Leica to migrate CCD owners to the CMOS platform. It most probably would be decided by management, not the engineers. And now that there is a new CEO in charge..
Is Leica really working on a new CCD sensor for the M9?
- Thread starter Huss
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Because it may be easier for Leica to migrate CCD owners to the CMOS platform. It most probably would be decided by management, not the engineers. And now that there is a new CEO in charge..
Pioneer
Veteran
It is fun to speculate, and there is an awful lot of that going on.
What we do know is this:
- Leica is replacing sensors in cameras with sensor corrosion.
- Leica is providing quotes for those who would rather upgrade to a newer M240.
- Leica has stated that they are looking for a solution and there is no confirmed information to the contrary, just speculation.
- The day that one of us gets a letter from Leica that says they are no longer replacing sensors and that we will have to upgrade instead, everyone will know!!
Until then my M9 continues to take wonderful just as I expected it would when I bought it. 🙂
What we do know is this:
- Leica is replacing sensors in cameras with sensor corrosion.
- Leica is providing quotes for those who would rather upgrade to a newer M240.
- Leica has stated that they are looking for a solution and there is no confirmed information to the contrary, just speculation.
- The day that one of us gets a letter from Leica that says they are no longer replacing sensors and that we will have to upgrade instead, everyone will know!!
Until then my M9 continues to take wonderful just as I expected it would when I bought it. 🙂
asiafish
Established
Mine too, and my M Monochrom (CCD) is better still.
IdealCamera
Established
When did Leica state that they were working on a new CCD sensor? Please provide a link to that press release.
willie_901
Veteran
IdealCamera
Established
Yes, I fear you mistook sarcasm for ignorance. Predictably, the second paragraph of the official Leica release (which I read at the time) says nothing about a new CCD sensor.
More exactly, this is what it says: "We have now identified the problem and are currently concentrating our efforts on finding a permanent technical solution . . . ." Some would project their wishes or errant thoughts on this and concoct stories about new CCD sensors. Others will cheer them on.
Now, let's see what the dictionary says about the terms "pedant" and "wrong." Be sure to read the definition of the second one.
Dante_Stella
Rex canum cattorumque
They use Schott S8612 glass for the IR filter. It is the highest efficiency IR blocking glass that exists (it only takes 1mm of glass to do the job). It is also well documented that it degrades with humidity. This is a standard component of a lot of IR/UV filter packs on sensors, but on the M it is probably closer to the environment. It is usually hard-coated to forestall degradation.
http://www.us.schott.com/advanced_optics/english/download/schott-bandpass-s-8612-dec-2014-en.pdf
Dante
http://www.us.schott.com/advanced_optics/english/download/schott-bandpass-s-8612-dec-2014-en.pdf
Dante
Freakscene
Obscure member
Camera Clinic (Australia) just contacted me to let me know my Monochrom's sensor is corroded (I already knew - I'd looked with a dissecting microscope - but it was nice to get confirmation). Leica Australia confirmed I'm being offered an upgrade to a Typ 246.
I'm going to take it; this is my second corroded sensor since August 2012.
Marty
I'm going to take it; this is my second corroded sensor since August 2012.
Marty
willie_901
Veteran
The problem is one of linguistics.
As far as I know Leica has nothing to do with sensors. They don't design them, nor do they manufacture them. Leica outsources it's sensors.
At the same, Leia is deeply involved with engineering the best possible sensor assembly. The sensor itself may be the main component, but the micro lenses, color-filter array (even the Leica monochrome cameras have a CFA, but it's not an RGB CFA), the IR filter and the protective color glass. These components Leica specifies play a significant role in technical IQ.
The issue: is will Leica fund the R&D, engineering and manufacturing costs involved with producing a M9 IR-filter/cover-glass component for the M9 sensor assembly. It seems unlikely the CCD sensor in existing M9 sensor assemblies will be reused. Instead the exact same Kodak-desgined CCD sensor (now built by another manufacturer) would be part of a new sensor assembly unit. The new sensor assembly could have either a different IR filter (that is not degrade quickly when exposed to humidity) or an improved cover-glass coating formulation to insure humidity can't reach the IR filter (unless the cover glass is abused).
Leica will never have access to a different CCD sensor. CCD sensors are rarely used in new still-imafing products. Their use and development is for specialized industrial and scientific applications. The cost per unit would be extremely high because only M9 owners value CCD sensors (actually they value the CCD sensor assembly).
If the Leica M9 sensor assembly unit was not the value-added component, M9 proponents would also claim other CCD cameras, such as the Nikon D200, produced aesthetically superior color rendering, etc. Of course, they do not.
I can't think of any technical basis for how CCD pinned-diodes can convert the electrical components of visible light waves waves to electrical charge with more fidelity than a pinned-diode in a CMOS sensor.
But I can think of several reasons the sensor assembly can produce aesthetically unique, desirable images.
As far as I know Leica has nothing to do with sensors. They don't design them, nor do they manufacture them. Leica outsources it's sensors.
At the same, Leia is deeply involved with engineering the best possible sensor assembly. The sensor itself may be the main component, but the micro lenses, color-filter array (even the Leica monochrome cameras have a CFA, but it's not an RGB CFA), the IR filter and the protective color glass. These components Leica specifies play a significant role in technical IQ.
The issue: is will Leica fund the R&D, engineering and manufacturing costs involved with producing a M9 IR-filter/cover-glass component for the M9 sensor assembly. It seems unlikely the CCD sensor in existing M9 sensor assemblies will be reused. Instead the exact same Kodak-desgined CCD sensor (now built by another manufacturer) would be part of a new sensor assembly unit. The new sensor assembly could have either a different IR filter (that is not degrade quickly when exposed to humidity) or an improved cover-glass coating formulation to insure humidity can't reach the IR filter (unless the cover glass is abused).
Leica will never have access to a different CCD sensor. CCD sensors are rarely used in new still-imafing products. Their use and development is for specialized industrial and scientific applications. The cost per unit would be extremely high because only M9 owners value CCD sensors (actually they value the CCD sensor assembly).
If the Leica M9 sensor assembly unit was not the value-added component, M9 proponents would also claim other CCD cameras, such as the Nikon D200, produced aesthetically superior color rendering, etc. Of course, they do not.
I can't think of any technical basis for how CCD pinned-diodes can convert the electrical components of visible light waves waves to electrical charge with more fidelity than a pinned-diode in a CMOS sensor.
But I can think of several reasons the sensor assembly can produce aesthetically unique, desirable images.
Ronald M
Veteran
My opinion is yes, but with limited resources.
I read somewhere there was an alternative ir coating not sensitive to corrosion that could have been used at 10 % exposure penalty. I would have taken the 10 % myself.
I read somewhere there was an alternative ir coating not sensitive to corrosion that could have been used at 10 % exposure penalty. I would have taken the 10 % myself.
Pioneer
Veteran
Even if the sensor results were pretty mundane and looked more like a surveillance camera?
10% is quite a bit in the electronic world.
10% is quite a bit in the electronic world.
Huss
Veteran
So, another month has passed, and nothing but silence. I'm hoping that Raid will get to talk to Leica's new CEO and ask him.
there is some speculation on the net that Blackstone is looking for a Leicaexit - perhaps selling out to Panasonic.
I can't help but wonder if the final M9 sensor solution and accompanying necessary financial investment
will be put on hold until Blackstone exits. hmmm.
Stephen
I can't help but wonder if the final M9 sensor solution and accompanying necessary financial investment
will be put on hold until Blackstone exits. hmmm.
Stephen
Huss
Veteran
Looks like the release of the Q shows no-one over there is working on the CCD sensor fix.
airfrogusmc
Veteran
Pioneer
Veteran
Well, Huss should be happy now. 😀
I am amazed he hasn't commented yet since he seems to check regularly.
I am amazed he hasn't commented yet since he seems to check regularly.
airfrogusmc
Veteran
Looks like they've been working on it. Good news I'd say.
Looks like he should be able to get his camera taken care of now for sure.
Huss
Veteran
😀
Just saw this.
Gotta be honest, I was not expecting it. This is great news. I am really looking forward to images taken with this new CCD sensor as I'm not totally loving the results from my M240 with the CMOS.
They are just lacking in that sparkle that the CCD gave.
If the new CCD performs, then I can see a used market where the M9 series will be worth more than the M CMOS cameras.
airfrogusmc
Veteran
I have not experienced any problems with my MM. Over 30K and 2 1/2 years. This is really good news if I do. I will get a new sensor that will not have the corrosion issue.
""Latest information on the CCD sensors of the Leica M9 / M9-P / M Monochrom and M-E camera models"
Is the heading referring to the CCD sensors that will be replaced, new CCD sensors that are being developed, or both?
Will the newly developed sensors be CCD or CMOS ?
If CCD, I wonder if there will be a new M's with the new CCD sensor?
Stephen
Is the heading referring to the CCD sensors that will be replaced, new CCD sensors that are being developed, or both?
Will the newly developed sensors be CCD or CMOS ?
If CCD, I wonder if there will be a new M's with the new CCD sensor?
Stephen
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