Jarle Aasland
Nikon SP/S2, Fuji X100
Write concerned letters to local and national newspapers, contact your MP (or state governor, senator, president or whatever), get a "Photographer at work (please don't arrest me)" T-shirt: http://www.cafepress.com/photoatwork - get into politics, go to court. Anything. Just do something.
Jarle
Jarle
Vertigo2020
Member
ROTFLMAO...only the last sentence is grounded in reality.
I have no experience in the the laws of the UK. However, in the US, to "pressure, especially in court" requires a tier of fact overcoming the government's presumption that they always act in compliance with the law, and a person acting under the color of law violated a protected liberty interest, e.g. Section 1983 litigation. Even if you can prove a violation, the police officer is likely entitled to qualified immunity from damages unless the violation is one of clearly established law. In the vast majority of cases such as this you won't get past a Motion to Dismiss for Failure to State a Claim under Rule 12 (b) (6). The officer will be protected from discovery and won't even have to file a responsive pleading. Case dismissed and you're Ordered to pay all costs.
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35mmdelux
Veni, vidi, vici
How many of you have actually been busted?
Pavel+
Established
But Vertigo ... they are still the way to go. I know US law fairly well as it rubbed off (my ex a lawyer) and you are mostly right. Sometimes one does not have to win every battle to turn the tide of the war. Mostly I think awareness and a media effort will slowly hem the speed of how this is sometimes a problem. History tends to go in cycles and I hope (naively I'm sure) that in a few years the tide will turn. So really making the public aware and to take a vocal patient stand against excesses.
Vertigo2020
Member
I wished I shared your optimistic vision. Regrettably, I do not. I believe that we will see a further intrusion on our civil rights and a predilection of the courts to parse a single word to avoid enforcement of those rights. Don't believe me? Read the SC decision in Hiibel about your 5th Amendment Rights. Or, Cuevas v. City of Philadelphia in the 3rd Circuit in regards to the meaning of the word "shall". Or, Gonzales v. Castle Rock for police officer immunity. Although my opinion is somewhat jaded; I would present the conjecture that we are little more than serfs laboring at the pleasure of our government to provide a tax base.
Pavel+
Established
I've been confronted too many times to count. My job is to take photos of educational events, of schools and of students etc. Some concerned citizen thinks I have no rights to do what I do so often ... If I only had a dime each time. I could take the easy way out and show my badge but I don't like to do that. To me it is not the point that I have a right and one phone call can clear it up, to me it is a matter of militancy (perhaps) and advocacy because I know that EVERY photographer has the right to photographs public property (which is ultimately what a school is) and I don't want them to say "oh ... I see ... you are sanctioned" I want to drive the point home, however uncomfortable, that photography is LEGAL and every photographer has a right. We as photographers do have more rights under the law than is being sanctioned.
When I get a cop walking up to me (happens once a month on average) with their chest puffed out thinking I'm going to be on the deffensive, I (perhaps sad to say) get somewhat defient. I challenge them to tell me, why they are bothering me. I guess I act arrogant but quiet. Mostly the police are really nice and just checking to see what is going on, which does bother me a bit because I think photographers have been given an odd bad rap, but it they insist on acting like they have the power to tell me to get lost and to cese to take pictures I ask them to call in to their supervisor to find which law I'm braking. I have done this several times and it is interesting to me that they never have and they change their tone.
I want to stress that I only take offence once in a while when I get the feeling that the police officer, security guard or citizen has an attitude bespeaking of santimoniousness and assume that bullying me will work.
Last year I took a vacation to Savanah. I was taking a photograph of a hotel with interesting architecture. A guard came up and tell me to stop. I asked why. He said ... not allowed. I told him that I was on a public sidewalk. He told me the hotel own the sidewalk. I was casual and smiling at this point. He left. A few minutes later his senior came along with a different attitude. He actually screamed from about forty feet away. "We've told you that you need to stop!". And I mean screamed at the top of his lungs. My two kids freaked at bit. At this point he is marching towards me in a very aggressive way so I just stood there and let him walk up to me. He came to within inches of my face and spent about three seconds glaring at me from about one two feet away from my face. So I closed the gap a bit with my face as I starred back. After a second or two of that he jumped back, actually jumped back and blurted out "Don't get so close" He took two steps back and got on his radio. I didn't hear the whole thing but I caught "male, 6 foot two ... threatening". I got mad only at this point (and this is with my two young daughters in tow) and got back in his face and said quietly but as menicingly as I could muster " I want you to call the police. I wan't you to get them down here. Now".
He changed his tone completely and said, defensively now, we are just suposed to check out suspicious activity. A few more exchanges and he actually told me at the end "well I can see you are just taking pictures (duh!) and that it is fine.
Was I wrong to get so confrontational?
The whole scene was repeated in a different form about forty minutes later at a landmark. This time the guard came out and told me no pictures. I tried to be as friendly as possible and told him basically that I know my rights standing on this sidewalk, that I know he has to do his job, but that I'm not leaving nor stopping.
Later when there was a cruiser at an intersection I walked up to the officers inside and told them an abreviated version and asked them if there was some law here that I don't know about. They said ... no ... just go on and do what you want.
But I suspect that if I tried that same act of defiance with a police officer rather than a rent a cop, that I'd be in jail, black eye and all, and the headlines would read " dumb photographer jailed while resisting arrest" I suspect that it is possible that I would be facing charges such as battery or who knows what. Those charges would be put in because no cop can justify doing something not in line with the law.
Am I going overboard?
I thought I was just a guy taking vacation snaps.
But this is not about photography to me. I grew up and escaped a Communist system and love the freedom of countries that say they believe in it as a way of life. To me it is about not letting that drift away, under any excuse - even though I know it is probably just better to give up what I'm doing and find another hoby. I have a badge for work that stops all conversations and gets me an uncomfortable apology. But that is not the point ... is it?
When I get a cop walking up to me (happens once a month on average) with their chest puffed out thinking I'm going to be on the deffensive, I (perhaps sad to say) get somewhat defient. I challenge them to tell me, why they are bothering me. I guess I act arrogant but quiet. Mostly the police are really nice and just checking to see what is going on, which does bother me a bit because I think photographers have been given an odd bad rap, but it they insist on acting like they have the power to tell me to get lost and to cese to take pictures I ask them to call in to their supervisor to find which law I'm braking. I have done this several times and it is interesting to me that they never have and they change their tone.
I want to stress that I only take offence once in a while when I get the feeling that the police officer, security guard or citizen has an attitude bespeaking of santimoniousness and assume that bullying me will work.
Last year I took a vacation to Savanah. I was taking a photograph of a hotel with interesting architecture. A guard came up and tell me to stop. I asked why. He said ... not allowed. I told him that I was on a public sidewalk. He told me the hotel own the sidewalk. I was casual and smiling at this point. He left. A few minutes later his senior came along with a different attitude. He actually screamed from about forty feet away. "We've told you that you need to stop!". And I mean screamed at the top of his lungs. My two kids freaked at bit. At this point he is marching towards me in a very aggressive way so I just stood there and let him walk up to me. He came to within inches of my face and spent about three seconds glaring at me from about one two feet away from my face. So I closed the gap a bit with my face as I starred back. After a second or two of that he jumped back, actually jumped back and blurted out "Don't get so close" He took two steps back and got on his radio. I didn't hear the whole thing but I caught "male, 6 foot two ... threatening". I got mad only at this point (and this is with my two young daughters in tow) and got back in his face and said quietly but as menicingly as I could muster " I want you to call the police. I wan't you to get them down here. Now".
He changed his tone completely and said, defensively now, we are just suposed to check out suspicious activity. A few more exchanges and he actually told me at the end "well I can see you are just taking pictures (duh!) and that it is fine.
Was I wrong to get so confrontational?
The whole scene was repeated in a different form about forty minutes later at a landmark. This time the guard came out and told me no pictures. I tried to be as friendly as possible and told him basically that I know my rights standing on this sidewalk, that I know he has to do his job, but that I'm not leaving nor stopping.
Later when there was a cruiser at an intersection I walked up to the officers inside and told them an abreviated version and asked them if there was some law here that I don't know about. They said ... no ... just go on and do what you want.
But I suspect that if I tried that same act of defiance with a police officer rather than a rent a cop, that I'd be in jail, black eye and all, and the headlines would read " dumb photographer jailed while resisting arrest" I suspect that it is possible that I would be facing charges such as battery or who knows what. Those charges would be put in because no cop can justify doing something not in line with the law.
Am I going overboard?
I thought I was just a guy taking vacation snaps.
But this is not about photography to me. I grew up and escaped a Communist system and love the freedom of countries that say they believe in it as a way of life. To me it is about not letting that drift away, under any excuse - even though I know it is probably just better to give up what I'm doing and find another hoby. I have a badge for work that stops all conversations and gets me an uncomfortable apology. But that is not the point ... is it?
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Vertigo2020
Member
Don't get me wrong, I don't disagree with you. Your position is honorable and justified. However, in response to your belief that the US government is freedom loving is naive. The US has 5% of the world's population yet houses 25% of the world's prisoners. That fact alone is proof positive that we are one of the most authoritarian countries on the planet.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Dear Pavel,
You recall, no doubt, the difference between capitalism and communism. Under capitalism, man is exploited by man. Under communism, it is the other way around. Come to think of it, I have had less trouble in the old Soviet Union and in China than in the UK or USA, though in all fairness, I've spent less time in the Soviet Union and China too.
Seriously, I completely agree with your attitude. On the rare occasions I have been hassled by real police or rent-a-cops, I have been polite but firm. And guess what? They back down. It's giving in that reinforces their self-image as all-powerful arbiters of the law.
Cheers,
R.
You recall, no doubt, the difference between capitalism and communism. Under capitalism, man is exploited by man. Under communism, it is the other way around. Come to think of it, I have had less trouble in the old Soviet Union and in China than in the UK or USA, though in all fairness, I've spent less time in the Soviet Union and China too.
Seriously, I completely agree with your attitude. On the rare occasions I have been hassled by real police or rent-a-cops, I have been polite but firm. And guess what? They back down. It's giving in that reinforces their self-image as all-powerful arbiters of the law.
Cheers,
R.
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sjw617
Panoramist
Yes, I think you were wrong. You seem to like the attention.
If you get stopped so many times (apparently more than the rest of us together) than maybe you are doing more than you are telling us. I understand parents can be an issue for you but why not "show the badge' and just get on with your job. Being constantly confrontational may cost you the job someday.
Steve
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Dear Steve,
I don't agree. 'Showing the badge' is a tacit acceptance that the rest of us (without a badge) can't do it. To me, Pavel is behaving completely honourably and rationally.
Cheers,
R.
wgerrard
Veteran
To me, there is a connection between not giving the police an excuse to arrest you and the odds that a court case will go against the police. (And by the latter I mean that the prosecution is not successful, not that the police are found to have been at fault. I'm interested in keeping photographers from being hassled and arrested, not in proving that cops are power-hungry bullies.)
The issue of our right to use a camera needs to be taken to the courts unencumbered with the charges almost certain to result from being aggressive or confrontational with a cop. I want to create situations where people are brought into court only because they used a camera. I want the police and the prosecution, in the UK or elsewhere, to be required to explain exactly what criminal offense is represented by taking a picture.
Being confrontational is not synonymous with being firm in the exercise of your rights. If you give the cop an excuse to arrest you -- by touching him, by walking away, by refusing to answer his questions, etc. -- you are simply providing him with the opportunity to arrest you on a charge unrelated to photography.
Once in court, therefore, you can talk about your right to take pictures, but no one will care because none of the charges have anything to do with photography. And, the court's decision will have no impact on the issue of photographers' rights.
Note, too, that I am talking here about real police, not private security guards, etc.
The issue of our right to use a camera needs to be taken to the courts unencumbered with the charges almost certain to result from being aggressive or confrontational with a cop. I want to create situations where people are brought into court only because they used a camera. I want the police and the prosecution, in the UK or elsewhere, to be required to explain exactly what criminal offense is represented by taking a picture.
Being confrontational is not synonymous with being firm in the exercise of your rights. If you give the cop an excuse to arrest you -- by touching him, by walking away, by refusing to answer his questions, etc. -- you are simply providing him with the opportunity to arrest you on a charge unrelated to photography.
Once in court, therefore, you can talk about your right to take pictures, but no one will care because none of the charges have anything to do with photography. And, the court's decision will have no impact on the issue of photographers' rights.
Note, too, that I am talking here about real police, not private security guards, etc.
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wgerrard
Veteran
Roger, I agree. But, I think Pavel's reaction won't do anything to improve the situation.
Private security guards are paid and directed to hassle people who take pictures of the property they are supposed to be protecting. The chances that they are familiar with the law surrounding photography are essentially nil. Even if one of them happens to know the law, the chances he will risk being fired are invisible.
The public puts up with this nonsense because, first, few of them are photographers and, second, because most of them are scared and will accept a little oppression of someone else if that makes them feel safer.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Disaster_Area
Gadget Monger
The problem of the scared society and the attitude of "well it's not me who's freedom is threatened is the biggest problem. And staging protests is NOT the way to affect change. Living in Ottawa and working near Parliment Hill I see my fair share of protests and 99% of them are completely useless at best...and counter productive at worst.
The only time a protest works is if the general public is already understands the cause and just needs to see a show of how many people support it... for instance there where two protests in particular last year that come to mind:
1) Protesting around the Tamil Tigers (for/against not sure) from ... not sure
2) Protest concerning Fyre, Macedonia and Greece... not really sure what about
Do you see what I mean... I had no real understanding of the politics and motivations of these protest.. .to me and everyone I talked to, they where just a large mob of people holding signs that made no sense and blocking my morning commute... you can't accurately convey a complex message with a sign.. the best you can do is "Abortion YES!!" or "NO TO FETUS MURDER"... we all know what's going on and the sign says what side you're on.
Until the public understands and is somewhat behind us there's no sense in protesting. We need to publicize more stories like the one I read here a while ago where a Norwegian(?) man was vacationing in England with his son and were arrested and confined for days because they took a picture of a tram... the didn't resist.. they didn't complain...but were held for the full duration of their planned vacation.
The only time a protest works is if the general public is already understands the cause and just needs to see a show of how many people support it... for instance there where two protests in particular last year that come to mind:
1) Protesting around the Tamil Tigers (for/against not sure) from ... not sure
2) Protest concerning Fyre, Macedonia and Greece... not really sure what about
Do you see what I mean... I had no real understanding of the politics and motivations of these protest.. .to me and everyone I talked to, they where just a large mob of people holding signs that made no sense and blocking my morning commute... you can't accurately convey a complex message with a sign.. the best you can do is "Abortion YES!!" or "NO TO FETUS MURDER"... we all know what's going on and the sign says what side you're on.
Until the public understands and is somewhat behind us there's no sense in protesting. We need to publicize more stories like the one I read here a while ago where a Norwegian(?) man was vacationing in England with his son and were arrested and confined for days because they took a picture of a tram... the didn't resist.. they didn't complain...but were held for the full duration of their planned vacation.
Disaster_Area
Gadget Monger
and we need high profile coverage... get the guy on Oprah... get Heraldo to do a story on it... we need to get a high profile NON-photographer involved, someone the public can see has no vested interest in the issue besides being outraged that it's happenning.
Nikkor AIS
Nikkor AIS
My take on the rights of the photographer come from shooting people places and things of people on the canadian street's/rural area's for over twenty years and being a martial artist for even longer. First of all there is personal safety issue to being a photographer on the street. I can speak from personal experience there is a real possibility of being attacked by person's who don't take kindly to being photographed. Always be aware or your surroundings and be very careful not to let anyone into your personal space. If they attempt to "get in your face" I suggest using verbal commands like "back off" , "step back" combined with raising your hands in front of your body in a defensive stance. If possible get any camera's around your neck off ASAP. Letting someone get nose to nose is not my idea of good strategy for and a bad approach to personal safety.
As best as you can try and deescalate the situation all the while being mind full of possible avenues of escape. As they approach you WATCH THERE HANDS as they could have a palmed weapon like a knife. Above all trust your instincts and never , I repeat never be afraid to run. It's a sad set of legs that lets a body take a beating
.
As far as dealing with people of authority a calm professional attitude and demeanor is always the best first response. Being rude and abrasive may make you feel better but will not help your case if and when you find your self in front of a judge asking for bail. Always ask the person who confronts you (security guard, police) name as well as there supervisor. Write it down. Being friendly is by far the best approach when dealing with folks that have the power of arrest and control. If arrested do not resist. Drawing attention to yourself and solititing witness that can be used in your defense later.
I think the best way to keep are rights as photographers is to get out and take picture's.
"Rights are never given only taken"
Gregory
Rogalsky Combatives International
www.rogaltacdesign@smugmug.com
As best as you can try and deescalate the situation all the while being mind full of possible avenues of escape. As they approach you WATCH THERE HANDS as they could have a palmed weapon like a knife. Above all trust your instincts and never , I repeat never be afraid to run. It's a sad set of legs that lets a body take a beating
. As far as dealing with people of authority a calm professional attitude and demeanor is always the best first response. Being rude and abrasive may make you feel better but will not help your case if and when you find your self in front of a judge asking for bail. Always ask the person who confronts you (security guard, police) name as well as there supervisor. Write it down. Being friendly is by far the best approach when dealing with folks that have the power of arrest and control. If arrested do not resist. Drawing attention to yourself and solititing witness that can be used in your defense later.
I think the best way to keep are rights as photographers is to get out and take picture's.
"Rights are never given only taken"
Gregory
Rogalsky Combatives International
www.rogaltacdesign@smugmug.com
Disaster_Area
Gadget Monger
I don't think we need to go as far as "how to defend yourself"... getting beat up for taking pics and getting harassed by security/police are two completely different issues... unless you look REALLY dodgy or took a picture of someone really dodgy I doubt you're going to get a black eye... more just a dirty look... the focus of the thread is more about people in or assuming they are in a position of authority threatening legal action not physical... getting defensive or getting into a defensive stance... running away... all these things just make you look guilty and set back the cause immensely
KM-25
Well-known
Cool, now did you delete the photo, because it was the right thing to do morally, or did you hold onto it and harbor yet more bad karma?
It is so very telling and yet still stunning in how out of dozens of posts, the only person that even remotely showed human decency towards the would be subject was Yanindel. The rest of you talk of "Fighting back" without even thinking about how your subject might feel about appearing on the internet without consent.
And to hell with the laws of government, how about the laws of nature?
Do any of you even give a crap about the people you photograph? Not by what I read here. So really, don't expect the average person to stand up for your rights if all you can think about is the next human element to upload to Flickr to hear "Great Capture".
Get real people, you sound like a bunch of selfish brats, if you are going to "Fight" this, you had damned well better have your subjects on your side...
migtex
Don't eXchange Freedom!
Well, Yanindel is a great photographer and I'm admirer of his work, nevertheless my initial question still imposes; do we sell our gear and turn only to landscape or macro photography?
(nothing against it, I did it as well and looks that I have to do it if wanna keep using the gear)
Because the only way I see One can do street photography will be like this...
or not even that...
For sure some attitudes are needed to bring up attention, everyday thousands of cameras are sold. It's on the camera manufacturers interest to bring attention on this disproportionate actions against photography (and people rights).
I'll keep on taking pictures.
(nothing against it, I did it as well and looks that I have to do it if wanna keep using the gear)
Because the only way I see One can do street photography will be like this...
or not even that...
For sure some attitudes are needed to bring up attention, everyday thousands of cameras are sold. It's on the camera manufacturers interest to bring attention on this disproportionate actions against photography (and people rights).
I'll keep on taking pictures.
Disaster_Area
Gadget Monger
umm... ok first off.. the laws of government are the only way everyone gets treated fairly... and by fairly I mean the same as everyone else. I'm not asking for MORE rights than everyone else, but in the shopping mall situation why is it ok for someone with a kid (who may not even be in the performance) to take a picture but not the photographer in question. Even if you are a parent in a park taking pictures of your kid... you probably got other kids in the shot. Why can't a father with his kid at a park be a pedophile... there's TONS of sexual deviants with kids.. but people take for granted that if he's there with his own kid he must be ok. There's a billion people taking pictures in a billion places with P&S and cell phone cams... why pic on the obvious photographers with big camera's? Just treat everyone the same... that's all I'm saying. And if the photographer at that mall laid a single finger on the cop, then yes he should be charged because that's the law. If the law changes such that I can't take pictures on the street... fair play... I'll follow the law or move somewhere else.. but if the law says what I'm doing is legal, there should be no reason I should be harassed by an officer of the law. Either that photographer shouldn't have be stopped... or EVERYONE taking pictures should have been stopped. I'm sure the father that reported the guy would have been pissed if he had be stopped from taking pictures of his kid in the performance.
The bottom line is you can't pick and choose which laws to follow... which rights are important... who's rights are important... and it should be expected that an officer of the law knows those laws inside and out... IT'S HIS JOB.. the very basis of his job... you cannot be an effective law officer without knowing the law any more than you can be an airline pilot without knowing how to fly a plane. There are a lot of laws in this country I don't agree with but I'll follow them all so society works and hopefully other people don't break the laws that I DO care about, that can harm me if broken.
And as for "what about the laws of nature"... well the laws of nature say: "Kill, eat, screw, steal from and do whatever else you need to to stay alive... and if you don't... tough, that's life... the only winner is the one left standing"... so I'm not sure what you meant by that. If we went by that law we should all just do whatever the hell we want as long as we can get away with it.