tbarker13
shooter of stuff
I was in the first batch of M8 owners when they launched. I thought it was a good time to buy then, and still do think it was a good time. I went through my share of issues with the camera, but frankly the experience of using that camera made the hassles worth it.
I'm now using an M8.2, but I wouldn't hesitate to buy an M8 if I were shopping again. Just shop smart. Get one with a warranty if you can.
I'm now using an M8.2, but I wouldn't hesitate to buy an M8 if I were shopping again. Just shop smart. Get one with a warranty if you can.
MCTuomey
Veteran
B+W versions used are running around $30-35, even less, now that some owners are selling their M8's to fund M9's. Not a heckuva lot more than a decent UV filter.
shadowfox
Darkroom printing lives
So what makes you think that M8 would give you far superior images with those same lenses then?
Whatever "superior" means to you, that is.
Harry Lime
Practitioner
Nobody expects a RF to frame as accurate as an SLR, but the shooter should expect 'reasonable accuracy', as we have had with the analog M-series for the past +50 years.
There was nothing reasonable about the accuracy of the framelines in the original M8 and Leica got a serious and well deserved reaming from it's customers for screwing this up.
The upgraded framelines are very accurate and actually make the camera useable for anything more than casual use.
If you get an M8, upgrade the frameline mask. You won't regret it. I still recommend an M8.2 over the M8, not just for the quieter shutter etc. Leica also appears to have tweaked the electronics here and there and made the camera a lot more reliable than the early bodies.
It's a catch 22 situation. If you want a digital M you only have two options. The M8.x or M9 and neither is a bargain or offers a stellar price performance ratio. But they are the only game in town. As long as Leica sticks to it's decision to give all but their well heeled users the bird and refuses to introduce something like a CL-D at a lower price, you don't have much of a choice.
kehng
Established
Hi
Thanks for all the responses! The happy users are reassuring and most of the problems raised seem minor (IR filters, framelines, crop factor) but the idea of forking out for a new sensor or the camera developing a fault out of warranty is too horrible to contemplate when I am clearly shopping on a budget. I guess the M8 is a game changer for M users like me in this way. Whenever I've bought an analogue M I have been pretty confident that I was using something I could trust and something that is unlikely to develop a fault unless I abused it. The M8 is digital and this goes out the window. Buying one with some warranty is now a new priority on my checklist if I go ahead with this. I suppose I could sell my M7 as well as the GF1 + lens or two and get a nearly new 8.2 but I have a feeling that I would regret losing my M7.
Also, Will in response to your question, I just think that the shots on Zeiss lenses or my Summicron just don't feel the same on the GF1 compared to prints from my M7. The character seems flatter and the more expensive M lenses don't seem to be any better than the standard Lumix. If what you are telling me is that the M8 will do the same thing than I think I may as well just stick to film for now. I do have a LX3 for convenient happy snaps and the wife uses an A900 with Zeiss lenses for her work which I could borrow if I desperately need a decent digital shot. I could maybe live without either the GF1 or M8 and just stick to what I already love using - my M7. I suppose I can afford to wait until the perfect M8 or M8.2 deal comes along...
Thanks for all the responses! The happy users are reassuring and most of the problems raised seem minor (IR filters, framelines, crop factor) but the idea of forking out for a new sensor or the camera developing a fault out of warranty is too horrible to contemplate when I am clearly shopping on a budget. I guess the M8 is a game changer for M users like me in this way. Whenever I've bought an analogue M I have been pretty confident that I was using something I could trust and something that is unlikely to develop a fault unless I abused it. The M8 is digital and this goes out the window. Buying one with some warranty is now a new priority on my checklist if I go ahead with this. I suppose I could sell my M7 as well as the GF1 + lens or two and get a nearly new 8.2 but I have a feeling that I would regret losing my M7.
Also, Will in response to your question, I just think that the shots on Zeiss lenses or my Summicron just don't feel the same on the GF1 compared to prints from my M7. The character seems flatter and the more expensive M lenses don't seem to be any better than the standard Lumix. If what you are telling me is that the M8 will do the same thing than I think I may as well just stick to film for now. I do have a LX3 for convenient happy snaps and the wife uses an A900 with Zeiss lenses for her work which I could borrow if I desperately need a decent digital shot. I could maybe live without either the GF1 or M8 and just stick to what I already love using - my M7. I suppose I can afford to wait until the perfect M8 or M8.2 deal comes along...
shadowfox
Darkroom printing lives
I also went a similar path. I use film for everything, medium format and 35mm mainly. For digital and snapshots, I use an Olympus E-P2.
Quality-wise, film has more texture and an overall look that I prefer than digital. Not that digital is bad.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
The M8 is great... until you try an M8.2. Then the M8.2 is great... until you try an M9. I would (and do) cheerfully use all three, and would go back to the M8 alone if I had to, but of course the later cameras are nicer. Nor do I find the M8 frames a great problem. If you use a camera much -- I must have put 10,000 images on the M8 before I got the M8.2 -- you soon learn the relationship between the frames and the area covered.
Upgrade-itis? Only sort of. I find it hard to imagine what they can do to the M9 that would matter very much to me. Higher ISO would be nice, of course, but as I can remember the days when ISO 400 was fast, ISO 2500 doesn't seem too limiting to me.
Cheers,
R.
Upgrade-itis? Only sort of. I find it hard to imagine what they can do to the M9 that would matter very much to me. Higher ISO would be nice, of course, but as I can remember the days when ISO 400 was fast, ISO 2500 doesn't seem too limiting to me.
Cheers,
R.
nobbylon
Veteran
That's the point Roger and I think something that gets lost on people, myself included. I think the M digitals should be used as a replacement for M film and not as a competitor to the high iso dslr's.
The high iso Dslr has allowed me to get pictures that a film M wouldn't have. Horses for courses. The only issue I have with the digital M's for me is really one of value for money. I've used an M8 and loved it but the price I don't think is justified as a film replacement camera. If they priced their M9's the same as my D700 and gave it the same capabilities then I think more people would choose M9's. I'm rather hoping Nikon have an M bayonet rangefinder in the making but I'm not holding my breath!
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Sadly, I doubt the market would be big enough to allow them to lower their prices much. Sure, if they could sell between 10x and 100x more cameras, they could automate quite a bit more and bring the prices down, though still not to D700 levels, but I'd be surprised if the market for M9s were 100x bigger than present levels even at D700 prices, though it might be 10x. There just aren't enough people who want manual-focus digital rangefinder cameras.
Even then, things like hand-lapped focusing mounts and 100% (not batch) QC will ensure that Leica prices stay high.
Cheers,
R.
> There just aren't enough people who want manual-focus digital rangefinder cameras.
Subliminal Advertising might help. We could hack the EVF of modern cameras to display "Buy a Leica Manual Focus Rangefinder Camera and quit being Such a Wimp"...
Subliminal Advertising might help. We could hack the EVF of modern cameras to display "Buy a Leica Manual Focus Rangefinder Camera and quit being Such a Wimp"...
kehng
Established
update
RG Lewis sold me a demo M8 with 1 year warranty today Glass screen is a bit scratched and there are a few marks but i thought at that price NOW is the time!
Does anybody know where I can get the glass replaced without thee 700 euro M8.2 option?
RG Lewis sold me a demo M8 with 1 year warranty today Glass screen is a bit scratched and there are a few marks but i thought at that price NOW is the time!
Does anybody know where I can get the glass replaced without thee 700 euro M8.2 option?
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Roger Hicks
Veteran
How can it be growing on a second-hand market?
Sorry if I've misunderstood your point.
Cheers,
R.
Ben Z
Veteran
I wouldn't replace it if all it has is mostly superficial scratches. The original M8 screen is not glass, it's some kind of acrylic. Meguiar's makes a compound for polishing out acrylic lenses on automobile lights. I've used it on acrylic watch crystals and cell phone screens and had it work well. Just use a tiny bit on a little piece of damp terry cloth and rub gently in circles with a finger behind the cloth. Let the residue dry to a haze and then wipe with a clean soft cloth. Only real caveat with electronics (and the back of the M8 qualifies) is not to get any of the stuff (either wet or the dried dust) in the pushbuttons. Best to mask off everything but the screen first with non-residue tape. It won't take out deep scratches but it might just pretty it up enough to satisfy. Worst you have to lose is you end up replacing it anyway, best case you saved a ton of money and down time waiting. After it's done, get a protector called "Best Skins Ever" (google it). They sell it in sheets you can cut to size. The stuff is amazing, you can scrape it with keys and it won't mar. Won't peel at the edges either. Have had one on my 5D and my cell phone for a year and it's still perfect.
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Phillym
Member
Hi,
Having had the M8 and recently selling it I have come to the conclusion that the camera is just overpriced and without any great benifts at all. The price for the features does not remotely stack up to what can be had in a SLR. No auto focus and quite honestly the final result being photo quallity is not any better then the GF1 I bought on a whim. Low light forget with M8, it is just not there. I also have a D Lux 4, and comparing this the GF1 while larger is far superior. No shutter lag and prints are definitely better. Leica does have the mystic and I do love the products but more for workmanship and not for photo abiiity. Comparing a 8.5 x 11 to my Nikon D3 is night and day. The nikon is sharper and much more interesting to look at. I am considering the M9 but I think Leica will make a move either with price of features which in my opinion they are not shipping it. If you go to KEH and price either a M8 or M8.2 to sell you will see that the price to sell is terrible. On average a retailer is looking to make upwards of $$800 profit on a used M8 or M8.2. This is much to much profit to make on this camera. The fact that the camera is digital represents a new low on resale. In order for Leica to compete in the market they must either lower the price of the M9 or accept low number sales. Could you imagine what the price of an M8 or M9 would drop to if Bessa annouced a 10meg digital rangefinder around $2500.00. If I were you and you have the bug to buy a M8 or M8.2, then I would shop the leica retailers and look for a bargain. One will pop up. Camera land in Ny has a M8.2 for $2900.00 mint condition. I think they realize what is happening and do not want to come up short.
Having had the M8 and recently selling it I have come to the conclusion that the camera is just overpriced and without any great benifts at all. The price for the features does not remotely stack up to what can be had in a SLR. No auto focus and quite honestly the final result being photo quallity is not any better then the GF1 I bought on a whim. Low light forget with M8, it is just not there. I also have a D Lux 4, and comparing this the GF1 while larger is far superior. No shutter lag and prints are definitely better. Leica does have the mystic and I do love the products but more for workmanship and not for photo abiiity. Comparing a 8.5 x 11 to my Nikon D3 is night and day. The nikon is sharper and much more interesting to look at. I am considering the M9 but I think Leica will make a move either with price of features which in my opinion they are not shipping it. If you go to KEH and price either a M8 or M8.2 to sell you will see that the price to sell is terrible. On average a retailer is looking to make upwards of $$800 profit on a used M8 or M8.2. This is much to much profit to make on this camera. The fact that the camera is digital represents a new low on resale. In order for Leica to compete in the market they must either lower the price of the M9 or accept low number sales. Could you imagine what the price of an M8 or M9 would drop to if Bessa annouced a 10meg digital rangefinder around $2500.00. If I were you and you have the bug to buy a M8 or M8.2, then I would shop the leica retailers and look for a bargain. One will pop up. Camera land in Ny has a M8.2 for $2900.00 mint condition. I think they realize what is happening and do not want to come up short.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
(1) Unless you want an RF
(2) Sure, I can imagine it. I can imagine all sorts of things that are unlikely or impossible.
Cheers,
R.
Phillym
Member
it never stops amazing me how thin skinned Leica owners are.
On behalf of all of us that have recently bought Leica M8 and M8.2 cameras second-hand, I'm quite happy that you like your Nikon D3. I hope all that sell their Leica equipment are happy with their choices.
Did Nikon stop encrypting information in their Raw files, something they introduced with the D2x? What a fiasco that was. I was going to buy a pair of them to supersede my pair of D1x's until I read that some moron at Nikon decided they wanted everyone to use their software, and not third-party software like Photoshop for processing Raw files. I can't find any references to encryption in the D3 files. Does anyone know? Or are they candidates for another Bill Gates award for open-standards?
Did Nikon stop encrypting information in their Raw files, something they introduced with the D2x? What a fiasco that was. I was going to buy a pair of them to supersede my pair of D1x's until I read that some moron at Nikon decided they wanted everyone to use their software, and not third-party software like Photoshop for processing Raw files. I can't find any references to encryption in the D3 files. Does anyone know? Or are they candidates for another Bill Gates award for open-standards?
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
Yep- You're right. A Leica M needs user input. It is indeed a choice between using your photographic abilities or relying on the machine.
Phillym
Member
you are right. its like using shovel instead of a snowblower or your legs instead of a car. all kidding aside, i think that the leica products are a work of art and in fact miss my m8. i will buy the m9.
kehng
Established
further update: the M8 i bought was a lemon. It developed a shutter fault after 2 days. Framelines went haywire and the software became stuck so it could no longer be used. I've taken it back to the shop and it's been sent back to Leica. It's now been a week and I've shot about 15 shots on the camera and still waiting for it to return. Moral of the story, definitely pleased I've got warranty on the second hand camera. I guess the good news is Leica is looking over the camera and it'll hopefully perform as it should when I finally get it back!