sleepyhead
Well-known
Well, it's been what, about 8 or 10 years since Cosina Voiglander kicked off the so-called "Rangefinder Renaissance" with their line of Bessa cameras, great set of affordable lenses, loads of accessories.
It was great.
Is it over?
Where is Cosina going with rangefinders in the future, if anywhere?
Anyone with "inside" information, or at least solid rumours?
It was great.
Is it over?
Where is Cosina going with rangefinders in the future, if anywhere?
Anyone with "inside" information, or at least solid rumours?
Sparrow
Veteran
... you'd not heard about the full frame black and white digital then?
sleepyhead
Well-known
Keith
The best camera is one that still works!
I think it is a little now .... and Mr K needs to think about a digital body to ignite lens sales.
Re-vamp the RD-1 with a new full frame 12 or 18 megapixel sensor for around $2500 to $3500 and you have serious competition for all the other wannabes out there that are pretending to be M mount bodies!
Re-vamp the RD-1 with a new full frame 12 or 18 megapixel sensor for around $2500 to $3500 and you have serious competition for all the other wannabes out there that are pretending to be M mount bodies!
Sparrow
Veteran
... so true, and I understand Mr K will be talking to Apple about organising the software and user interface
Joosep
Well-known
From the internet.
"Kobayashi-san wanted to maintain his vow to keep the Voigtlander series analog"..."He lent the guts of the Bessa R2 (with automatic-exposure) to Epson, which attached a CCD sensor, rear LCD, and a very cool looking analog information gauge to the top and called it the Epson R-D1."
Im not expecting him to change his worldview to be honest.
So maybe another "match" will be made with someone else or with Epson again ?
But on the topic, maybe...
In my country almost noone uses RF and almost none of them have a Bessa.
The photo company I work at wanted to start importing Voigtländer, but when they asked, they got a simple answer "no way".
I know about 5 Bessas in total (counting mine) in Estonia. So cant see a rise or a fall here...
"Kobayashi-san wanted to maintain his vow to keep the Voigtlander series analog"..."He lent the guts of the Bessa R2 (with automatic-exposure) to Epson, which attached a CCD sensor, rear LCD, and a very cool looking analog information gauge to the top and called it the Epson R-D1."
Im not expecting him to change his worldview to be honest.
So maybe another "match" will be made with someone else or with Epson again ?
But on the topic, maybe...
In my country almost noone uses RF and almost none of them have a Bessa.
The photo company I work at wanted to start importing Voigtländer, but when they asked, they got a simple answer "no way".
I know about 5 Bessas in total (counting mine) in Estonia. So cant see a rise or a fall here...
sleepyhead
Well-known
Interesting to hear the situation in Estonia.
I don't think that we have a Voigtlander dealer in Denmark, either.
I don't actually currently own any Cosina Voigtlander gear, but I did have a Bessa R2 and several lenses in the past and it was those "gate-way drugs" that led me down the path to the harder stuff.
Still, I love some of the CV lenses (I'm not crazy about the bodies, but the R4 is a truly novel body if you love shooting wides), and would like to see them carry on with "the Renaissance"!
OT, but a camera with iOS is a purchase I would make. Current digital models have UIs that are akin to torture.
Joosep
Well-known
Au contraire.
Sparrow
Veteran
... the iPhone is one of the few modern gadgets I'm happy with, most unlike the multi-function sub-menu hell I descend into each time try to convince a digital camera to take a photo my preferred way rather than its
hipsterdufus
Photographer?
I think that one thing that might start hurting lens sales is that people are realizing what a PITA it is to use adapted lenses with a lot of bodies. You change the effective FOV of the lens, wide-angles start to look crummy on most sensors, etc. A significant niche of the market is dying for a universal full-frame back to properly adapt these lenses. But none seems forthcoming.
N
Nikon Bob
Guest
I think Keith hit the nail squarely on the head.
Bob
Bob
I doubt there was ever a renaissance... just another player in the niche market.
sleepyhead
Well-known
I respectfully disagree.
Prior to Cosina Voigtlanders introduction of affordable rangefinder bodies and lenses, many hobbyists who were intrigued by the Leica mystic and/or the advantages of rangefinder-type cameras but who could never justify the cost of Leica equipment, didn't try rangefinders.
After CV made them available, sites like RFF took off big time, and Zeiss (re)started production of lenses in M mount.
Okay, perhaps "NICHE-renaissance" is a compromise we can agree on?
Yes. I can compromise. My point was not that CV didn't create a new price point for new RF gear, because they did. I just think renaissance is too strong a term in the grand scheme of the cameras produced in the last ten years.
What I can say though, is that there is more new rangefinder gear on the market today than there was in the 90s. That is saying something of a NICHE-renaissance.
dct
perpetual amateur
RF is a completely unknown focussing type of photographic gear (analog or digital) to the mass of photographers say, under 40 years? If they know something about RFs, then it is what they saw and read about Leica in magazines, internet and movies.
Beeing RFs a niche in today's revenues and mass knowledge, Voigtländer bodies are an additional niche in this context, because we RF user have still a big 2nd hand market with affordable alternatives which still compete with the Bessa line.
I'm very happy having also a Bessa and using CV lenses too. But I don't know how many tiny % I am with my gear in the whole photographic market in Western Europe...
Renaissance?
***considering***
Beeing RFs a niche in today's revenues and mass knowledge, Voigtländer bodies are an additional niche in this context, because we RF user have still a big 2nd hand market with affordable alternatives which still compete with the Bessa line.
I'm very happy having also a Bessa and using CV lenses too. But I don't know how many tiny % I am with my gear in the whole photographic market in Western Europe...
Renaissance?
***considering***
dbarnes
Well-known
Mr K and his revival/renaissance re-energized the RF market with new price points. Lots of us benefitted. But Mr K's economics for Cosina Voigtlander were boosted by his contract manufacturing of film SLRs at the lowest end of the market. Unless Cosina can tap a similar market for low-end, interchangeable lens DSLR bodies or large-sensor-CEVIL bodies, I'm not sure what Mr K would base a digital Bessa on. (I suppose it's possible that Cosina's already doing contract manufacturing of DSLR bodies, and we're just not aware of it.)
As Keith suggested, Mr K could take a digital Bessa higher in price and lower in volume. But I have to wonder how low in volume Cosina could go, at any price point.
As Keith suggested, Mr K could take a digital Bessa higher in price and lower in volume. But I have to wonder how low in volume Cosina could go, at any price point.
willie_901
Veteran
That ship has left port.
It's too late. The m4/3 and APS-C mirrorless genre has filled the gap. While photographers who visit this forum would disagree that the gap is filled, we represent a very small amount of cash flow. Besides, a 24 X 36 mm sesnor makes thing harder. Would a light weight body with an analog rf and the thickness of a Nikon DSLR make people happy? If so you could have a F mount full frame RF camera rather quickly. The same goes for Canon, Pentax, etc.
But everyone wants to use M and LTM lenses. The film era is over. You can't just slap things together and expect things to just work out. This is particularly true as the focal lenght decreases.
M/LTM optics enjoyed the advantages of a three-dimensional sensor... film emulsions. As the focal length decreases, their suitability for Bayer sensors decreases. Larger sensors just makes the problems worse. There's a reason Leica codes lenses. There's a reason LUMIX lenses contain firmware to modify the raw data before even the camera computes a JPEG. Large angles-of-view are difficult to implement with Bayer sensors.
I think Ricoh and Fuji are on the right track. Ricoh has a platform that could support sesnors optimized for a range of short focal length M lenses. The X100's micro lens array is heterogeneous. The microlenses at the edge of the frame are different from those at the center. Fuji's XF lens design attempts to optimize performance at the frame edges. While the initial XF 18 mm lens is adequate, and it may compare well overall to other fast lenses with that angle of view on APS-C sensors. However there is room for improvement. At least Fuji's stategy is to develop lenses that are optimized for their sensor. Time will tell if they can provide affordable short focal length lenses that perform as well as CV lenses perform on film.
So back to CV. They could sell two M mount APS-C bodies with different sensors. One for focal lengths below 35 mm and one for above. Bayer sensor technology is mature enough for the platform to have a reasonable life. If people are happy using a circa 2000 technology sesnor with the RD-1, they would accept a 16 MP, high signal-to-noise sensor for a long time. Then CV could develop short focal length with outstanding optics for Bayer sensors. But they need a partner. Zeiss appears uninterested. So who is left? No one.
It's too late. The m4/3 and APS-C mirrorless genre has filled the gap. While photographers who visit this forum would disagree that the gap is filled, we represent a very small amount of cash flow. Besides, a 24 X 36 mm sesnor makes thing harder. Would a light weight body with an analog rf and the thickness of a Nikon DSLR make people happy? If so you could have a F mount full frame RF camera rather quickly. The same goes for Canon, Pentax, etc.
But everyone wants to use M and LTM lenses. The film era is over. You can't just slap things together and expect things to just work out. This is particularly true as the focal lenght decreases.
M/LTM optics enjoyed the advantages of a three-dimensional sensor... film emulsions. As the focal length decreases, their suitability for Bayer sensors decreases. Larger sensors just makes the problems worse. There's a reason Leica codes lenses. There's a reason LUMIX lenses contain firmware to modify the raw data before even the camera computes a JPEG. Large angles-of-view are difficult to implement with Bayer sensors.
I think Ricoh and Fuji are on the right track. Ricoh has a platform that could support sesnors optimized for a range of short focal length M lenses. The X100's micro lens array is heterogeneous. The microlenses at the edge of the frame are different from those at the center. Fuji's XF lens design attempts to optimize performance at the frame edges. While the initial XF 18 mm lens is adequate, and it may compare well overall to other fast lenses with that angle of view on APS-C sensors. However there is room for improvement. At least Fuji's stategy is to develop lenses that are optimized for their sensor. Time will tell if they can provide affordable short focal length lenses that perform as well as CV lenses perform on film.
So back to CV. They could sell two M mount APS-C bodies with different sensors. One for focal lengths below 35 mm and one for above. Bayer sensor technology is mature enough for the platform to have a reasonable life. If people are happy using a circa 2000 technology sesnor with the RD-1, they would accept a 16 MP, high signal-to-noise sensor for a long time. Then CV could develop short focal length with outstanding optics for Bayer sensors. But they need a partner. Zeiss appears uninterested. So who is left? No one.
Aristophanes
Well-known
Where film goes so goes the RF mechanism.
With digital, it's an EVF as substitute, what Fuji has done in hybrid, or Leica.
RF and AF really don't mix because AF is agnostic to the ocular perspective. Ask a security camera.
So what a digital RF requires is a Leica-clone. The Fuji's have limited manual focus capabilities with their lenses, so we're at the Ricoh or adapters, and Ricoh has no FF sensor. And this leaves aside the issue of optimizing the sensor/lens dynamic.
FF sensors are very expensive with Sony having a near lock on supply for all non-Canon products. The inheritors of the Kodak fab will have a very difficult time keeping up with Sony Semiconductor, something possibly giving Leica a headache.
With digital, it's an EVF as substitute, what Fuji has done in hybrid, or Leica.
RF and AF really don't mix because AF is agnostic to the ocular perspective. Ask a security camera.
So what a digital RF requires is a Leica-clone. The Fuji's have limited manual focus capabilities with their lenses, so we're at the Ricoh or adapters, and Ricoh has no FF sensor. And this leaves aside the issue of optimizing the sensor/lens dynamic.
FF sensors are very expensive with Sony having a near lock on supply for all non-Canon products. The inheritors of the Kodak fab will have a very difficult time keeping up with Sony Semiconductor, something possibly giving Leica a headache.
paulfish4570
Veteran
this is a very interesting thread. it makes me wonder if there is a viable market for an olympus em-5 type/size "slr" optimized for manual focus lenses with open metering. could cosina do something along those lines? would it be possible to use a basic body around which to build an f-mount, say, and k mount and oly mount? i just do not know enough to know if this is a stoopid question ... 