drec
Rangeflounder
From what I've read, the major costs are not only seen in the FF sensor being larger and more expensive than the APS-C size, but APS-C sensors having much bigger production runs, thus mitigating costs. Sony's 16mp sensor, which I love, is in their cameras as well as Pentax and Nikon's (Ricoh, put it in a Leica module please!). Where else is Leica's Kodak sensor?
And, putting the sensor into a Bessa body wouldn't make sense-- I think you'd have to put it into an Ikon body in order to assure buyers of the sturdiness of their camera. I could see such a camera approaching at least $5000 new. And while $5000 is not $9000, I'm willing to wager that most people who can afford a $5000 rf body would just spring for the $9000 Leica.
I think the FF non-Leica dream remains alive with EVF brands like Ricoh or Sony. You won't see it in a rf body, but in an EVF. I have the GXR-M and would be totally fine with that; while I would love an M9, the only thing I really miss in the GXR is having a FF sensor.
And, putting the sensor into a Bessa body wouldn't make sense-- I think you'd have to put it into an Ikon body in order to assure buyers of the sturdiness of their camera. I could see such a camera approaching at least $5000 new. And while $5000 is not $9000, I'm willing to wager that most people who can afford a $5000 rf body would just spring for the $9000 Leica.
I think the FF non-Leica dream remains alive with EVF brands like Ricoh or Sony. You won't see it in a rf body, but in an EVF. I have the GXR-M and would be totally fine with that; while I would love an M9, the only thing I really miss in the GXR is having a FF sensor.
The Bessa makes complete sense...as long as you are not a snob. Bessas are sturdy enough.
zuiko85
Veteran
andephotographic; Well, 36X36mm would have a diagonal of 50.9mm. The legacy 35mm SLR and RF lenses only had to cover a diagonal of 43.25mm so the corners could be a bit dark.
thegman; How true! Unless you pay for their top of the line large aperture zooms (huge, heavy and expensive) the run of the mill kit zooms and other regular plastic body lenses inspire little confidence and lack proper engraved focus and DOF markings and aperture rings.
Another factor to consider is that manual focus primes, built to the same standards as NI-Ca-Ptx-Oly-Min had in the 1970's would cost a bundle today.
thegman; How true! Unless you pay for their top of the line large aperture zooms (huge, heavy and expensive) the run of the mill kit zooms and other regular plastic body lenses inspire little confidence and lack proper engraved focus and DOF markings and aperture rings.
Another factor to consider is that manual focus primes, built to the same standards as NI-Ca-Ptx-Oly-Min had in the 1970's would cost a bundle today.
sleepyhead
Well-known
Interesting discussion here regarding potential future digital options, BUT, as a film shooter,I must admit that when I started this thread what I had in mind was I wonder if CV has any "secret" plans for NEW LENSES that might interest rangefinder users.
Someone above wrote that they would like to see a 21mm f/2.
For years, I've been missing a 24mm f/2 for rangefinders. A 28mm f/1.4 would also be awesome.
Otherwise, I'm happy.
froyd
Veteran
Personally, I'm glad Cosina is not pumping out a new RF body every year or so. leave that that rat race for digital bodies.
Too bad though that their prices have jumped so much... I bought my R2a for $500, now they are $700 --just a couple hundred $ more and you are in Leica territory.
Too bad though that their prices have jumped so much... I bought my R2a for $500, now they are $700 --just a couple hundred $ more and you are in Leica territory.
ottluuk
the indecisive eternity
I think the partnership with Zeiss to produce ZM lenses kind of ruined the future of Voigtländer's own lens line. They either have an agreement with Zeiss not to undercut the ZM products with similar offerings or it's simply more profitable to make the ZM stuff for premium prices (sounds likely to me, it's not like there's a mass market for RF lenses).
For CV lens line this results in:
no current slow/tiny 28
no 35/2 (yeah, I know, f/2.5 is almost there - but almost there isn't much of a selling point)
no normal 50/2 with modern controls and 0.7m MFD
no hope of resurrecting the 50/1.5 Nokton in M mount
no current 90
This leaves a current "system" of unusual focal length and aperture combinations which really appears to be serve as an extension of the core system made up by ZM lenses.
When Konica made the Hexar RF, their main lens line was 28/2.8, 35/2, 50/2 and 90/2.8 - and this is essentially what you need for a practical, well thought out rangefinder system. Add a faster 50 and a 21 and you're there. You get that from Zeiss (aside from the 90/2.8, oddly) or Leica.
But as for Voigtländer - I think we may expect some more oddball lens designs, reworked classics, collapsibles, the like. /just a guess, no need to flame me
For CV lens line this results in:
no current slow/tiny 28
no 35/2 (yeah, I know, f/2.5 is almost there - but almost there isn't much of a selling point)
no normal 50/2 with modern controls and 0.7m MFD
no hope of resurrecting the 50/1.5 Nokton in M mount
no current 90
This leaves a current "system" of unusual focal length and aperture combinations which really appears to be serve as an extension of the core system made up by ZM lenses.
When Konica made the Hexar RF, their main lens line was 28/2.8, 35/2, 50/2 and 90/2.8 - and this is essentially what you need for a practical, well thought out rangefinder system. Add a faster 50 and a 21 and you're there. You get that from Zeiss (aside from the 90/2.8, oddly) or Leica.
But as for Voigtländer - I think we may expect some more oddball lens designs, reworked classics, collapsibles, the like. /just a guess, no need to flame me
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Is the original Renaissance over? In one sense, yes. In another, doesn't it inform what we do, centuries later?
Cheers,
R.
Cheers,
R.
zerobuttons
Well-known
Photografica in Copenhagen has at least some of the Voigtländer program:
http://www.photografica.com/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=voigtl%E4nder
bobby_novatron
Photon Collector
drec -- I must respectfully disagree with your Zeiss Ikon 'ruggedness' statement. I bought one used here on RFF a couple years ago, and after a while the ISO dial started malfunctioning. When I (gently) opened the housing to see what was wrong, I found the internal components of the dial to be made of very flimsy aluminum. Not very inspiring.
On that basis, a Bessa would probably do just fine for some kind of updated digital RF body from Cosina / Epson.
Now, in terms of the original thread -- is the Renaissance over? I don't necessarily think so. There are still lots of film enthusiasts and Cosina can be thanked for introducing so many interesting RF products over the past few years.
But yes, I think things could be shaken up a bit. If Cosina could come out with an updated APS-C (or bigger) version of the Epson RD-1, I'd be one of the first to buy one. It would really inject a lot of fresh momentum into the RF / photography community.
That being said, the incentives for Cosina / Epson are probably pretty low. RF's have been a niche market for decades now, and they're not going to sell such a unique product on volume. That means they'll have to recoup their investment through higher prices ... but that strategy puts them in the squeeze with other prosumer / professional products from Fuji, Leica, et al.
Oh well -- one can only dream! *sigh*
Excuse me while I go brew up some D-76...
On that basis, a Bessa would probably do just fine for some kind of updated digital RF body from Cosina / Epson.
Now, in terms of the original thread -- is the Renaissance over? I don't necessarily think so. There are still lots of film enthusiasts and Cosina can be thanked for introducing so many interesting RF products over the past few years.
But yes, I think things could be shaken up a bit. If Cosina could come out with an updated APS-C (or bigger) version of the Epson RD-1, I'd be one of the first to buy one. It would really inject a lot of fresh momentum into the RF / photography community.
That being said, the incentives for Cosina / Epson are probably pretty low. RF's have been a niche market for decades now, and they're not going to sell such a unique product on volume. That means they'll have to recoup their investment through higher prices ... but that strategy puts them in the squeeze with other prosumer / professional products from Fuji, Leica, et al.
Oh well -- one can only dream! *sigh*
Excuse me while I go brew up some D-76...
shadowfox
Darkroom printing lives
I think Cosina should stay true to their mission.
If I were in Mr. K's position, the next thing is to strike a deal with Ilford or Fuji to make film processing a bit easier for those who came from digital (assumed nowadays) and would like to "try film." How? that's another discussion.
But I'm tickled that CV produced high quality lenses for m4/3rd.
If I can justify the price of that Nokton 17.5mm (that's 35mm equivalent), I would snap one up.
If I were in Mr. K's position, the next thing is to strike a deal with Ilford or Fuji to make film processing a bit easier for those who came from digital (assumed nowadays) and would like to "try film." How? that's another discussion.
But I'm tickled that CV produced high quality lenses for m4/3rd.
If I can justify the price of that Nokton 17.5mm (that's 35mm equivalent), I would snap one up.
Keith
The best camera is one that still works!
Comparing used Leica to new Cosina doesn't work for me ... the logical match for an R2A is a fifty year old M2 that back in it's day probably cost a month's wages for the average buyer.
daveleo
what?
View~Finder
Member
Don't care about LTM, don't care about digital--they're leaving themselves a smaller and smaller slice of a small market. But hey, it worked for Kodak!
Well said!
segedi
RFicianado
Think Sigma for the rangefinder.
CV (Cosina Voigtlander) lenses make up the entry level for Leica LTM and M mount. They also make SLR lenses and S mount lenses too, but normally on RFF the talk is about the Leica mounts.
I think they represent good value - I had a Zeiss ZM 21mm f/2.8 and sold it and picked up a CV 21mm f/4. The CV 21mm lens is tiny, puts out a great image. And costs 1/3 to 1/4 the Zeiss lens I sold. The other offerings for fast glass give near Noctilux speed for 1/10th the cost.
funkydog
Well-known
Forgive the offtopic comment but that's a perspective of Lake Louise that few people get to see. Must have been a long hike.
dreamsandart
Well-known
I remember very well with fondness being at an annual reenactment of a centuries old royal precession in Kyoto not long after the Bessa cameras and Voigtlander lenses were introduced and seeing someone with a couple around his neck. He was having a very good time, taking lots of photos, and the system I knew was affordable which made it even better in my mind. No it wasn't Leica, like the ones I was sporting, but I did have a bit of envy because it was all there. I guess I felt he was part of a 'renaissance' in a style I took for granted. Before the 'price of admission' could only be bought with a classic Leica/Nikon rangefinder.
'Renaissance'? Yes, in a small way. Anyone that works now or in the past with rangefinder cameras - and that means most of the folks here - owes a bit of thanks to Kobayashi-san. I think he did something a lot of photographers wanted (even if they didn't know it at the time) and was successful in his vision. It could even be asked; Would Leica be where its at now without Cosina Voigtlander?
Is it over… ? (the original question) Like many things that change, we forget how it was back a few years ago. Leicas and rangefinder cameras were in use, but not even close to mainstream. Now we have successful full frame digital rangefinders, the M-mount has become a standard and used on smaller format compact digital cameras with adapters ( just saw a new Japanese publication devoted to old lenses on new digital bodies. The Japanese are usually ahead of the curve, so take note), and the new lens selection from multiple companies is beyond anything I could have imagined.
Digital has changed things again. The film based RF renaissance may be over, but… It would be nice to see a few less expensive RF and full frame sensor cameras to kick off another evolution level of use.
'Renaissance'? Yes, in a small way. Anyone that works now or in the past with rangefinder cameras - and that means most of the folks here - owes a bit of thanks to Kobayashi-san. I think he did something a lot of photographers wanted (even if they didn't know it at the time) and was successful in his vision. It could even be asked; Would Leica be where its at now without Cosina Voigtlander?
Is it over… ? (the original question) Like many things that change, we forget how it was back a few years ago. Leicas and rangefinder cameras were in use, but not even close to mainstream. Now we have successful full frame digital rangefinders, the M-mount has become a standard and used on smaller format compact digital cameras with adapters ( just saw a new Japanese publication devoted to old lenses on new digital bodies. The Japanese are usually ahead of the curve, so take note), and the new lens selection from multiple companies is beyond anything I could have imagined.
Digital has changed things again. The film based RF renaissance may be over, but… It would be nice to see a few less expensive RF and full frame sensor cameras to kick off another evolution level of use.
MartinP
Veteran
It is very simple already! For black-and-white processing, write the Ilford address on an envelope with a stamp, put the film and order information inside, post it to Ilford and a week or so later receive your prints on the doormat. For colour, do the same but using a different address. Many of the large national-scale colour labs, for "happy-snaps" here in Europe, are indeed run by Fuji or using their machinery. Your wishes have already been granted
Gumby
Veteran
Gumby
Veteran
teleparallel
Established
I think they should make a sequel of the R-d1, with APS-C sized sensor, and a set of dedicated lenses, such 14mm f/4, 18mm f/2, 23mm f/2.5(1.4). The rest of the focal lengths are the usual lenses. This way all this products could stil bel affordable(fuji did, so can cosina), no problems regarding the large sensor and bayer system(since it can be optimized on the lens, by adding back focusing designs). People with old glass would be happy to use old lenses. All cosina need is a partner, for the sensor.
Film is in a way dying. I think Ilford will be there forever, and maybe Kodak, but things will start to get expensive(they already are in Brazil). Go digital and keep nice prices is a way to stay in the market, aside making lenses for other camera brands.
Film is in a way dying. I think Ilford will be there forever, and maybe Kodak, but things will start to get expensive(they already are in Brazil). Go digital and keep nice prices is a way to stay in the market, aside making lenses for other camera brands.