Is the RD-1 headed for a nosedive?

thegman said:
I think it'll drop when they get to a certain age, and start to fail. All electronics have a lifespan, and once they start to be considered unreliable, temperamental, or unserviceable , then I think the value will drop considerably. It's on worth $1200 if it's not a paperweight, and they'll be paperweights eventually, unfortunately.
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Not just failure. The self-inflicted depreciation of most digital cameras has more to do with obsolescence than failure rates. And that obsolescence is driven by the marketing and development programs of the manufacturers who have a strong vested interest in shifting current purchasers on to "the next big thing". At the moment, Fuji don't appear to be playing that game - at least to the same extent. If we start seeing X101 and X10.1a models then the game might have changed at that point.
Epson never really got into that game, so although the RD-1 might be seen as a bit outdated it hasn't been impacted by a succession of "you beaut" newer versions that undermine the retained value in the originals.

In the past (and history is no guide to the future, I know) Fuji have been a little quirky in that they have produced several excellent, if under-rated cameras for a time but they also cease production of them without replacing them with an upgraded version. This new X range might be a new approach though.
 
willie_901 said:
I doubt Fuji will implement a practical method to use the XP-1 in manual focus mode with analog lenses.
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That may be, although they shouldn't even bother producing a M mount adapter for their X mount if all they are going to do is offer a magnify assist - the same which already exists on the X10 and X100. At this point that is the stated offer for M glass users... maybe they are that clueless that they'd do no more. I hope not.

I don't see how the XP-1 will have any affect on RD-1 prices. People who own M and LTM lenses and need/want an optical finder only have three digital options.
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Agreed. The XPro 1 won't appeal to a died in the wool purist that wants a rangefinder camera, it is anything but. It may appeal to those manual focus lens users who are willing to put up with having to switch back and forth between EVF and OVF for focus and composing... but that's not a RF experience at all.

If folks want a digital RF they've got three options as you've said and probably won't be any more than three options, ever, unless Leica comes out with new digital Ms.
 
the R-D1 is a unique camera. the way it feels and how it handles is very pleasing, to me even more pleasing than an M8. the fact it's "only" 6mp does not bother me at all, it's enough for me. it does have its quirks and flaws but every camera has theirs.

I got an X100 and its IQ is pretty good and has fantastic high ISO, but it's not as pleasant to shoot with as the R-D1 and I do miss manual focusing with a rangefinder, the X100's AF can be quite frustrating sometimes. I didn't miss a shot due to bad AF during my recent trip, but I wasn't doing street photography. it proved itself to be a great travel camera, but sometimes I did wish I had my R-D1 along.... just a matter of best tool for each situation. these bigger sensor EVF AF cameras are not rangefinder substitutes, I see them as complementary.
 
gdi said:
Yes, and it never reached the point of being interesting. Same as the talk of M8 and RD-1s being dumped in the nearest ditch because of the EP-1, EP2, G1, G2, GRDI,II,III, GXR, NEX,or that other Fuji (the X-WTF?) that everyone clamored for upon their announcement.

If all an RD-1 owner was looking for was a small camera that could accept M mount lenses, why haven't they dumped it already?
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I'd say that many of them have. Being dumped doesn't mean tossed in the trash. They just get sold to some other user.
And the price has steadily, though slowly, fallen. I think I paid $2,500 for my first RD-1 (my very first digital camera) about 6-7 years ago. Today I can easily buy two for that price.
And if there were no M8s or other RFish options, I bet the price would have held a little better.
 
Leigh Youdale said:
I don't know why people keep running this out as if it has some validity. I can only speak of the quality of the Fujinon lenses from recent experience - the Bessa III (Fuji GF670), the X100, the X10 and wide use in the cinematographic and video production industry and they're all superb. Why would anyone expect Fuji to crash and burn on the lenses for the new camera? Not logical.

Or are you referring to the still answered questions about manual focus methods to be employed and not the rendering quality of the glass? A different matter.
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i said if...
i don't care about manual focus...if i buy this new camera then i will have committed to using af and the fuji lenses.

i'll continue to shoot my rd1 as well, for as long as they last.
 
tbarker13 said:
I'd say that many of them have.
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Could you share the source of that information? It would be interesting to confirm how many owners sold their R-D1s or M9s because of the introduction of one of these other cameras.

Or are you just guessing? I suspect that is the case. Now if I were to guess, I would say more owners dumped their Epson for a Leica than a Ricoh.

And the price has steadily, though slowly, fallen. I think I paid $2,500 for my first RD-1 (my very first digital camera) about 6-7 years ago. Today I can easily buy two for that price.
And if there were no M8s or other RFish options, I bet the price would have held a little better.
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You are arguing that the RD-1 has seen unusual depreciation? And your example is that it dropped 50% in 6-7 years (in reality it has been out almost 8 years)? Try looking at other digitals in the same or higher price range - like the $3300 Canon 5D that sells for less than the RD-1 today and was introduced after it.

See? You can't say that the Epson price has dropped steadily since its introduction; that is simply false. I bought my first RD-1 from Epson as a warrantied refurb for about $1300 in 2006, many sell for more than that today. Over that last few years the most common selling price I have seen has been in the $1200-1400 range - that indicates price stability rather than steady decline.

The reality is that the Epson has proven to be an anomaly among digital cameras in that it has held its value far better than most others, in spite of the increase in cameras accepting M lenses. Of course the Epson prices will drop eventually, but it is silly to assume the bottom will fall out because of a single new whiz-bang camera introduction.
 
I got my R-D1 in 2009 for $1300, 3 years later the market price is the same. Meanwhile M8s have dropped from $2500 to $2000...

then again it's a matter of supply and demand: I believe there are both less R-D1s around than M8s and also those who had M8s sold them to get M8.2s or M9s, while most R-D1 owners preferred to keep them.
 
There's a gently used R-D1 on Craigslist in Vancouver for $1,800 - same camera is also on eBay for $2,000 to cover the fees no doubt.

I doubt it will sell very quickly.

Isn't Epson to totally drop support for the camera as of the end of this year?
 
tbarker13 said:
Obviously we've talked a lot about how the M8 and M9 will be impacted by the arrival of the Fuji Xpro-1.
But I really wonder how the Epson RD-1 will fare.....
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After reading some of the comments and thinking about it, I think the X100 is going to take the biggest hit. Why buy a X100 with a fixed lens for $1200 (or $950 used), when a X-pro 1 may just be a wee bit more.
 
chris00nj said:
After reading some of the comments and thinking about it, I think the X100 is going to take the biggest hit. Why buy a X100 with a fixed lens for $1200 (or $950 used), when a X-pro 1 may just be a wee bit more.
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the xpro 1 + 35/2.0 equivalent lens will cost twice as much as the x100, and will be a significantly bigger package than the x100, and the lens MAY not be as closely optimized to the sensor as the x100. thats why i won't be selling my x100, or more to the point, would still purchase an x100 over the xpro1.

imo, the x100 is a perfect, light compact street shooter (as well as low light shooter). it is a complement to, not a competitor of, a system camera like the xpro1. at least thats how i see it.
 
rbelyell said:
the xpro 1 + 35/2.0 equivalent lens will cost twice as much as the x100, and will be a significantly bigger package than the x100, and the lens MAY not be as closely optimized to the sensor as the x100. thats why i won't be selling my x100, or more to the point, would still purchase an x100 over the xpro1.

imo, the x100 is a perfect, light compact street shooter (as well as low light shooter). it is a complement to, not a competitor of, a system camera like the xpro1. at least thats how i see it.
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My main issue with the X100 is the 23mm lens. To get a small DOF, you have to be very close and at f/2. The X-Pro 1 will have a 35/1.4, which can drastically narrow the DOF.

I guess it depends on what you use it for. I am mostly taking photos of my kids and the 35mm equivalent is too wide for a small child.
 
chris i was just responding to your thought the x100 would suffer from introduction of xpro1. i think by your reply, maybe you agree it won't because theyre aimed at different uses and users.

DOF is really an overblown issue. close up at 2.0 theres plenty of OOF. and xpro1 plus any 35/1.4 is going to cost one double the priceof the x100.
 
gdi said:
Could you share the source of that information? It would be interesting to confirm how many owners sold their R-D1s or M9s because of the introduction of one of these other cameras.

Or are you just guessing? I suspect that is the case. Now if I were to guess, I would say more owners dumped their Epson for a Leica than a Ricoh.

You are arguing that the RD-1 has seen unusual depreciation? And your example is that it dropped 50% in 6-7 years (in reality it has been out almost 8 years)? Try looking at other digitals in the same or higher price range - like the $3300 Canon 5D that sells for less than the RD-1 today and was introduced after it.

See? You can't say that the Epson price has dropped steadily since its introduction; that is simply false. I bought my first RD-1 from Epson as a warrantied refurb for about $1300 in 2006, many sell for more than that today. Over that last few years the most common selling price I have seen has been in the $1200-1400 range - that indicates price stability rather than steady decline.

The reality is that the Epson has proven to be an anomaly among digital cameras in that it has held its value far better than most others, in spite of the increase in cameras accepting M lenses. Of course the Epson prices will drop eventually, but it is silly to assume the bottom will fall out because of a single new whiz-bang camera introduction.
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The source of my information? I see them for sale all the time. So clearly some people are selling/dumping them.
I don't think either of us can point to any sort of definitive sales data showing pricing trends of these cameras. But they are now selling for about a third of what they went for new.
It's my opinion that they've steadily declined in price. I guess you don't share that opinion. Of course we don't have to agree.

For the record, I'm not saying they are going to take a nosedive. But I won't be surprised if they do. When I originally posted this, there were a pair of RD-1s in the classifieds listed around 1,100-1,200 each. And they weren't drawing much interest.

That may mean nothing. Or it might mean something.
Time will tell.
 
a third of their original price? are you saying an m9 is now selling for $2500??? where where?? and sign me up for 2!! and if you see rd's going for $750 i'll take 3! ): imo, that' s what they should be selling for, but they ain't.
 
tbarker13 said:
The source of my information? I see them for sale all the time. So clearly some people are selling/dumping them.
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But in the previous posts you were stating that they were being sold to buy small cameras that can mount M lenses. Sure, they are being sold, like everything else; I was wondering why you were sure they were being replaced with little non-RF cameras.

I don't think either of us can point to any sort of definitive sales data showing pricing trends of these cameras. But they are now selling for about a third of what they went for new.
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No, there is no "definitive" sales data. But if you look you will see some selling for more than you could buy them for from Epson over 5 years ago (with warranty). Of course some sell for less, but it is just silly to try to claim that this camera has experienced an unusually high depreciation rate. There are many examples of digital cameras that do worse. And, of course, claiming that they have been sold to buy new little non-RF cameras is taking it to the next level.
It's my opinion that they've steadily declined in price. I guess you don't share that opinion. Of course we don't have to agree.
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Well there is opinion and there is fact.
For the record, I'm not saying they are going to take a nosedive. But I won't be surprised if they do. When I originally posted this, there were a pair of RD-1s in the classifieds listed around 1,100-1,200 each. And they weren't drawing much interest.

That may mean nothing. Or it might mean something.
Time will tell.
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I see there are two still there and offered by sellers with 1 and 2 total posts. One is $1250 and $1400. I would be surprised to see these sell quickly from these newbie sellers since they really are in the range of standard pricing. Of course another one sold for $1450 (with and old elmar) recently. I didn't see any for $1,100.

But I do agree that anything can happen regarding the prices of any of these cameras - the whole point of my posting was that I find your tying prices of the Epsons (and M8 and M9) to the availability of the Xpro to be a stretch. Most of the threads discussing the impact of the next model whiz-bang on the Leica digitals are really just a premise for the Leica bashers to try to get a rise out of the Leica owners.

BTW - I think you probably have the largest concentration of R-D1 owners in existence here at RFF. Why don't you post a poll asking how many have sold or will sell their cameras for the Fuji XPro? I think that could clear up the situation...
 
rbelyell said:
a third of their original price? are you saying an m9 is now selling for $2500??? where where?? and sign me up for 2!! and if you see rd's going for $750 i'll take 3! ): imo, that' s what they should be selling for, but they ain't.
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I think he is talking about the List price of the Epson when introduced - about $3000. I don't know how many people actually paid that.

Regarding the M9 - the soon to come Fuji has only lowered the price of those by about 50%. The XPro-2 will be the one to force the M9 down to $2500! :D
 
tbarker13 said:
The source of my information? I see them for sale all the time. So clearly some people are selling/dumping them.
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But aren't you talking about hundreds of cameras for sales when tens of thousands were sold (in the case of the Leicas)?
 
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