Is there a similar fiber paper to Adox 110 that doesn't cost quite so much?

[Steve M.]

I love the Adox fiber MCC 110 papers, but they ain't cheap! Does anyone know of another fiber paper that might be sorta, kinda close to it? I want to take some double portraits and print them large, but the sizes don't work well for full frame 35mm negs. 11x14 is a little on the small size when cropped, and 12x16 loses two inches on the long end (and I only gain 1 inch on the short side vs the 11x14). The only other option is to buy the 20x24 and crop it down, but that's something like $240 for 25 sheets! I better stick w/ 11x14 and live w/ the smallish size because 16x24 prints from the 20x24 paper is pushing things w/ a 35mm neg.

I know, it's better to shoot 120 film for these large sizes, but sharpness is not my priority. Besides, I like grain, and they're portraits anyway. It would be nice to get those pure whites and deep blacks that the MCC 110 delivers. Someone suggested some of the Ilford glossy papers might be good. Not exactly like the Adox stuff, but good in it's own way for portraits. I would like to avoid a real cold look, and neutral or warm is desired.

 

[Erik van Straten]

The first choice you'll have to make, is if you want gelatin/silver paper or resin coated paper. Resin coated paper is much easier to handle. If you are not used to it, gelatin/silver paper will be a disappointment. The learning process for using gelatin/silver paper takes some time.

I've never used it, but many people seem to like Foma paper. I think it is not as expensive as Adox. Ilford is about the same price as Adox.

The best thing you can do is to buy a small amount of Foma paper in a small format and do some printing, just to see if you like it.

Erik.

 

[esearing]

Bergger papers are nice too but about same price.

Ilford MGFB Classic is a little lower price depending on where you buy it. You can change its appearance depending on developer. PF130 (similar to ansco 130) gives a richer depth than a warmer/softer developer like LPD 1:2/1:3. Selenium toning (1:20) for 2-3 minutes can increase the dmax slightly and clear the green/gray cast some folks get. Slightly over exposing and a quick dilute bleaching might give you a tonality/contrast you are seeking too, depending on the negative.

Buy in bulk when possible to save so you spend less for packaging.

 

[Erik van Straten]

Adox is the best.

Split grade print on ADOX MCC 110.

Leica M3, Color Skopar 50mm f/2.5, Bergger 400.

Erik.

 

[Steve M.]

I never print on RC paper Erik. From the very first prints I made (on RC), the fiber versions looked so much better, probably due to the brighter whites. There's the archival aspect too.

The Ilford MGFB Classic paper sounds like a really good choice, and the price is attractive. I'll give it a try. Thanks.

A friend gifted me a like new Beseler 23 C last week. I bought a 50 2.8 El Nikkor for it and lots of Dektol, and already have some TMY 400 and Tri-X, so it's time to get this going.

 

[Erik van Straten]

Yes, good luck Steve. Show us the results! The EL Nikkors are fantastic.

The fiber paper is indeed much more beautiful than the resin coated, but quite difficult to dry. Drying and flattening are the thoughest part of the workflow.

The best thing to do is to press them flat in a Seal dry mounting press.

Erik.

 

[Skiff]

I love the Adox fiber MCC 110 papers, but they ain't cheap! Does anyone know of another fiber paper that might be sorta, kinda close to it?

You have tow options:
1. Buy directly at Fotoimpex. Probably the cheapest way to get Adox MCC. They do ship internationally.

2. Adox MCC is indeed an outstanding paper. I do use it, too.
But: There is another paper which has (almost) the same emulsion and looks extremely similar: Adox MCP. It's excellent, and my most used paper.

Concerning long-term stability: First class RC papers like Adox MCP and Ilford Multigrade IV RC with their outstanding Schoeller paper base have archival times of at least 80 years. Under good storing conditions even more than 100 years due to Ilford.
My oldest RC prints are about 40 years now, and look like new.
A proper fixed and washed Adox or Ilford RC print will outlive us (Foma RC paper is an exception, because they use a very cheap Chinese RC base which is not long term stable; you get what you pay for).

 

[Erik van Straten]

You have two options:

Concerning long-term stability: First class RC papers like Adox MCP and Ilford Multigrade IV RC with their outstanding Schoeller paper base have archival times of at least 80 years. Under good storing conditions even more than 100 years due to Ilford.

OK, I'll check that. If not true, I'll get you!

I'm joking, but I prefer gelatin paper. I've been using that since 1968 (Agfa Brovira).


Erik.

 

[retinax]

OK, I'll check that. If not true, I'll get you!

I'm joking, but I prefer gelatin paper. I've been using that since 1968 (Agfa Brovira).

Erik.

Erik, RC papers also have gelatin, the difference is underneath. So you might get happy with RC after all 😉

 

[Skiff]

OK, I'll check that. If not true, I'll get you!

I'm joking, but I prefer gelatin paper. I've been using that since 1968 (Agfa Brovira).

Erik.

Erik, as Retinax correctly said, both fibre and RC papers are silver-halide gelatin papers.
In general the film and photo paper emulsions are bedded into gelatin, which is the perfect material for that.
The silver-gelatin emulsions used for fibre and RC papers are almost identical. There is just a little bit modification for optimal adhesion.
And both papers have a real paper base: The difference is just that with RC papers the paper base is sealed and resin coated.

The Ilford technical person told me that due to their research RC papers will be stable for a very long time (see above) if proper fixed, washed and stored. They told me the differences in long term archivability between both types of papers are much much smaller than most photographers think.
At least that is valid for papers with a high quality paper base like that from Schoeller (German market leader for such paper bases). Both Ilford and Adox use this highest quality Schoeller paper base for their fibre and RC papers.

 

[Barry Kirsten]

There was an Agfa RC paper I used to use and really loved, but I'm darned if I can remember its name. My main baryta (FB) papers at the time were Ilford Gallerie and Agfa Record Rapid. The Agfa RC paper was very close to Record Rapid in its results, with a silver-rich warm-tone appearance. Sadly long since gone.

 

[Erik van Straten]

Hmm, I started printing my pictures at the age of thirteen, in 1968. In those years RC papers didn't exist. These came available in 1978 or so. Of course I too used those, because they were very handy: dry in a few minutes and beautifully flat. This paper was called Agfa PE. For many years I used that paper until one day I was looking for some old prints. How disappointed I was. The images were faded, slightly brown, with silvery spots on them. Also, they had a terrible smell. They were sticking together. My older prints, printed on the good old Agfa Brovira, still were like I printed them twenty years earlier.

That day I stopped printing on PE papers (as they were called) and tried Ilford Galerie. I never was happy with that paper because I could not dry it in the way I liked. The surface melts on a hot press. With the old Agfa Brovira drying was not a problem. I dried them hot on a Büscher press. But alas, the Agfa paper was gone.

Recently I discovered Adox MCC 110. It is like Agfa Brovira, but has variable gradation. This is for me the ideal paper. I can dry it on a Büscher press and flatten it on a Seal dry mount press. I've never been so happy. No plastic coatings at all. It dries flat. Wonderful tonality. Also the surface is beautiful. Easy to retouch with Spotone. (I still have some bottles of this stuff, also out of production.)

Erik.

 

[Skiff]

RC papers were introduced in the beginning of the 70ies. First with color papers, and shortly after that also on BW.
In the last decades a lot of R&D has happened with photo papers, which resulted in many siginificant improvements. Also concerning long term stability.
Our curent top quality BW RC papers from Adox and Ilford are much much better than the first RC papers. E.g. the problematic titan dioxide has been removed long ago by Schoeller.
So the current, modern high-tech RC papers from Ilford and Adox will probably outlive all of us, including the younger photographers.

I understand your love for Adox MCC. I like it very much, too.
Fortunately its RC version Adox MCP has (almost) the same outstanding emulsion, with just tiny differences due to different adhesion characteristics of the paper bases (sealed vs. not sealed).

 

[miha]

If ADOX MCP is anything like the original that I had a brief experince with a decade or so ago, then it's probably the best RC paper on the market. However it's only those prints made on ILFOR RC paper that had survived without blemishes. All other makes of paper show some defects, mostly silverin-out/bronzing, including AGFA MCP! Hopefuly ADOX is better in this regard and now equivalent to ILFORD RC.

As for ADOX MCC 110 cheaper alternative, try Fomabrom Variant 111 - an excellent paper in every regard.

 

[HHPhoto]

I have never had any problems with Agfa, Adox and Ilford RC papers in more than 30 years. Even the oldest, some of them hanging on the wall for about 30 years, are absolutely fine.
I do two-bath fixing, and washing in running water for 2-3 minutes.

Cheers, Jan

 

[Steve M.]

I don't have a closed mind on RC papers, and their flatness compared to fiber paper curling is attractive. Not that I've tried that many RC papers. On my very first darkroom prints I had a sample pack from Freestyle that included several types of RC papers and two MCC 110 fiber papers. There was a huge difference to my eyes between the Adox fiber papers and the RC papers. It was also dead easy to dial in, with absolutely no need to add filtration. It just came out exactly as I wanted on the first print after doing the test strip to determine exposure. Been using it ever since.

The Fomotone miha mentioned sounds worth a try, but something tells me that MCC 110 is in a class by itself for MY type of preferences, so I may have to just live w/ the high price. It's a very subjective thing, and everyone has their favorites.

I'm not sure if the MCC 110 paper is gelatin based. There ARE papers that aren't, but after a call to Freestyle they stated that they did not have any enlarging papers that did not have gelatin in them. Apparently, that's in the emulsion that holds the silver particles.

 

[Oren Grad]

Two things:

1) Re permanence of RC papers, go to Ctein's website, download his book "Post Exposure" which he has generously posted for free access, and read chapter 12, and especially the section starting on p 158.

http://ctein.com/booksmpl.htm

2) MCC and MCP are not interchangeable. I can't comment on whether the emulsions are chemically different, but in practice they have noticeably different characteristic curves, so a given negative printed on the two papers will come out with different tonal scales. This was true when I tested the original Agfa MCC and MCP when they were new to market, and was also true of Adox MCC and MCP that I've used more recently.

That doesn't mean you won't like both of them - they're both very fine papers. They're just different.

BTW, the same is true of the Ilford FB/RC pairs, only more so - MG FB Classic, MG FB Cooltone and MG FB Warmtone, respectively, render very differently from their supposed counterparts MG IV RC Deluxe, MG RC Cooltone and MG RC Warmtone.

 

[Oren Grad]

I'm not sure if the MCC 110 paper is gelatin based. There ARE papers that aren't...

Can you name any? Silver-gelatin emulsion is the fundamental technology on which all films and darkroom papers are based, whether color or monochrome and FB or RC.

 

[Barry Kirsten]

Is there any significance in the terms MCC and MCP? I note from some of the above posts that several companies use them for their papers. These are terms that have obviously escaped my notice.

 

[Oren Grad]

Is there any significance in the terms MCC and MCP?

In this thread, MCC and MCP refer to two specific products: Adox (formerly Agfa) Multicontrast Classic FB paper, and Adox (formerly Agfa) Multicontrast Premium RC paper.