Is there a similar fiber paper to Adox 110 that doesn't cost quite so much?

[Steve M.]

I've made papers at home using salt w/o a gelatin emulsion. An emulsion need not be gelatin based, you can use albumen, resins, gum arabic and organic acids like citrus. I think that iron based silver processes like kallitype, cyanotype don't use it, and maybe platinum, gold or palladium? Many years ago I remember printing out papers were available with and without a gelatin emulsion. Of course, those are all gone.

Maybe there aren't any more mass produced machine made photo papers w/o gelatin, and I don't understand why because the gelatin is simply a medium for the silver particles to reside in. It's the silver that makes the image, not the gelatin. It would seem that there are various other mediums that the particles could be immersed in besides the ones I mentioned.

 

[Erik van Straten]

Gelatin paper is somewhat thicker when wet. It seems that your picture is unsharp when the paper is wet, but when dry, the picture is sharp. I've never seen this effect with RC papers.


Erik.

 

[Oren Grad]

I've made papers at home using salt w/o a gelatin emulsion. An emulsion need not be gelatin based, you can use albumen, resins, gum arabic and organic acids like citrus. There are iron based silver processes like kallitype, cyanotype, or platinum, gold or palladium that don't require gelatin emulsions. Many, many years ago I remember printing out papers were available with and without a gelatin emulsion. Of course, those are all gone.

Maybe there aren't any more mass produced machine made photo papers w/o gelatin, and I don't understand why because the gelatin is simply a medium for the silver particles to reside in. It's the silver that makes the image, not the gelatin. It would seem that there are various other mediums that the particles could be immersed in besides the ones I mentioned.

Yes, there are certainly many alternative processes that do not use a gelatin emulsion. Mostly these are now DIY crafts, though I'm aware that you can buy cyanotype paper, and from time to time someone has tried to make a go of selling pre-coated papers for other alt-processes. But all mass-produced films and papers commercially marketed for general-purpose photographic use are, and have long been, silver-gelatin based.

 

[Skiff]

Maybe there aren't any more mass produced machine made photo papers w/o gelatin, and I don't understand why because the gelatin is simply a medium for the silver particles to reside in.

All current films and photo papers are using gelatin (some alternative processes excluded).

It's the silver that makes the image, not the gelatin. It would seem that there are various other mediums that the particles could be immersed in besides the ones I mentioned.

Gelatin is the perfect medium to protect the silver-halide crystals and to let them work as they should. For decades the R&D departments of all film manufacturers have tried to find alternatives. And after decades of research they have stopped this work, because the results always have been: Gelatin is perfect. And all other alternatives have been much worse.

 

[Skiff]

Two things:

1) Re permanence of RC papers, go to Ctein's website, download his book "Post Exposure" which he has generously posted for free access, and read chapter 12, and especially the section starting on p 158.

http://ctein.com/booksmpl.htm

I know the book. I have it. It's a good one, but not error-free. With all respect to Ctein:
- some parts of his book have been already wrong at the time of its publication
- as it is now an old book and technology has moved on, some parts are just outdated now.

And that is e.g. true for the RC paper subject: The stability problem has been titan dioxide in the early RC papers. But that is not used anymore for quite a long time with high-quality RC papers: Both Ilford and Adox are now using a highest-quality Schoeller RC paper base, which is free of titan dioxide. Just ask Schoeller, Ilford, Adox. They will tell you.

Its probably different with cheap Foma RC paper: They don't use the top-quality Schoeller base. But instead a cheap Chinese paper base.

2) MCC and MCP are not interchangeable. I can't comment on whether the emulsions are chemically different, but in practice they have noticeably different characteristic curves, so a given negative printed on the two papers will come out with different tonal scales. This was true when I tested the original Agfa MCC and MCP when they were new to market, and was also true of Adox MCC and MCP that I've used more recently.

My experience is a bit different: I've found being Adox MCC and MCP very similar in their optical characteristics.

 

[Roger Hicks]

There are often (?always) synthetic polymers in commercially manufactured photographic printing paper emulsions as well as gelatin; PVA, as far as I recall, though it's a hazy memory from long ago. See also https://patents.google.com/patent/US2982652

Cheers,

R.

 

[Deleted member 65559]

Just to go back to the OPs original question...it's about fiber paper. For me RC doesn't produce the results I look for in a print. So If paper costs more...I buy i bulk, print less large sizes, work with developers and toners to get the look i'm after. The permanence of RC just doesn't enter into my printing equation.

 

[miha]

And that is e.g. true for the RC paper subject: The stability problem has been titan dioxide in the early RC papers. But that is not used anymore for quite a long time with high-quality RC papers: Both Ilford and Adox are now using a highest-quality Schoeller RC paper base, which is free of titan dioxide. Just ask Schoeller, Ilford, Adox. They will tell you.

Hi Skiff, the stability problem wasn't titanium dioxide (or Titanox) but free radicals that generate under certain conditions. Titanox has a high UV absorption (this is why it's used in sunscreen creams as a main ingredient) which in turn protects the pictures. It is the quality of Titanox and certain addenda that lead to the improvement of RC print stability trough decades. I believe that Titanium dioxide is still present in the Schoeller base.

 

[Skiff]

I believe that Titanium dioxide is still present in the Schoeller base.

As I've already written several times in this thread:
Schoeller themselves has clearly said that there is no titan(ium) dioxide in their RC paper base.
Ilford and Adox have confirmed that.

And both Adox and Ilford use the Schoeller paper base for their RC papers.
But Foma is using a cheap Chinese base for their RC papers (probably from Lucky). That is why I avoid Foma, and use Adox and Ilford RC papers. You get what you pay for.

 

[miha]

So what do they use instead?

 

[Skiff]

Hi Skiff, the stability problem wasn't titanium dioxide (or Titanox) but free radicals that generate under certain conditions. Titanox has a high UV absorption (this is why it's used in sunscreen creams as a main ingredient) which in turn protects the pictures. It is the quality of Titanox and certain addenda that lead to the improvement of RC print stability trough decades. I believe that Titanium dioxide is still present in the Schoeller base.

Miha, thanks to your pm and the link to the reliable source I've realisied that I've changed things in my memory.
So you are right.
Due to Schoeller TiO2 is not a problem at all for long term stability and is used for decades both in fibre and RC paper bases.

 

[Steve M.]

"For me RC doesn't produce the results I look for in a print."

That's getting to the nut of it. I just can't get RC papers to give me what I want in my photographs. Otherwise I would use them. I was just looking for a more affordable paper than MCC 110 that looks similar, but now I see that it would require buying several different types of papers and testing each one. That's expensive and time consuming. May as well go with what I know works and pay what it costs.

 

[Skiff]

"For me RC doesn't produce the results I look for in a print."

That's getting to the nut of it. I just can't get RC papers to give me what I want in my photographs. Otherwise I would use them. I was just looking for a more affordable paper than MCC 110 that looks similar, but now I see that it would require buying several different types of papers and testing each one. That's expensive and time consuming. May as well go with what I know works and pay what it costs.

Where are you located?
In my first answer I've written:
"Buy directly at Fotoimpex. Probably the cheapest way to get Adox MCC. They do ship internationally."
At Fotoimpex Adox MCC has the lowest price, significantly lower than Bergger and Ilford.
Foma is of course cheaper. But in my opinion not close to MCC.

 

[Oren Grad]

Hi Skiff, the stability problem wasn't titanium dioxide (or Titanox) but free radicals that generate under certain conditions. Titanox has a high UV absorption (this is why it's used in sunscreen creams as a main ingredient) which in turn protects the pictures. It is the quality of Titanox and certain addenda that lead to the improvement of RC print stability trough decades. I believe that Titanium dioxide is still present in the Schoeller base.

In other words, we are in exactly the place that Ctein described when he wrote Post Exposure. Additives to stabilize RC paper against the Titanox reactions had already been introduced at that point, and are acknowledged in his writeup.

So where are we?

- We don't know what the additives are
- We don't know whether the additives are effectively consumed in neutralizing deleterious reactions and therefore might be "used up" at some point - so we don't know how long their effect will last
- We don't know what tests Schoeller relies on to support any claim about "stability through decades"
- We don't know whether Schoeller's claim applies only to dark storage under ideal environmental conditions (where such a claim may well be valid!), or to prints on display, where the paper is subject to light-driven reactions and vulnerable to atmospheric pollutants, and where most of the observed problems with RC have shown up

If you have documentation that addresses any of these points, it would be enormously helpful to share it.

 

[miha]

In other words, we are in exactly the place that Ctein described when he wrote Post Exposure.

Indeed we are. I don't know what if any improvements have been made in the last decade. The base has visually changed that's for sure, whether stability imporved as well, this we don't know.

If you have documentation that addresses any of these points, it would be enormously helpful to share it.

Unfortunately I have no such documentation Oren. But my experinces are not encouraging so I started to tone my RC prints. Not all of them, of course, I don't mind if my album prints change in time but framed Ilford MG deluxe satin looks quite nice toned in Agfa Viradon New IMO.

 

[zeitoun]

Hi,

I would be greatly interested in testing this paper. Does anybody know of a source in Canada?

Thanks in advance,

Paul

 

[Deleted member 65559]

Paul, I also live in Canada, & purchase Adox paper through B&H photovideo in NY. I've also bought it from Glazers in Seattle.

 

[zeitoun]

Dear Deardorff38,

Thanks! I'll check them out.

Paul

 

[Oren Grad]

Indeed we are. I don't know what if any improvements have been made in the last decade. The base has visually changed that's for sure, whether stability imporved as well, this we don't know.
...

Unfortunately I have no such documentation Oren. But my experinces are not encouraging so I started to tone my RC prints. Not all of them, of course, I don't mind if my album prints change in time but framed Ilford MG deluxe satin looks quite nice toned in Agfa Viradon New IMO.

OK, I think we are in the same place. I too use RC paper sometimes, and when I intend the prints for long-term keeping, I tone with selenium.

I was pursuing the issue only because I was concerned that some of the comments posted were leaving the impression that the stability issues of RC paper are definitively known to have been solved. But at least as far as information that is generally available to the public can tell us, I don't think that's the case.

 

[Skiff]

In other words, we are in exactly the place that Ctein described when he wrote Post Exposure. Additives to stabilize RC paper against the Titanox reactions had already been introduced at that point, and are acknowledged in his writeup.

No. Because
a) Ctein has not had delivered any proven facts. He had only speculations. He even admitted that. Quote: "I also didn’t prove that the culprit is the TiO2."
We don't know whether he did some mistakes in his workflow, had a bad batch or the paper was affected by heavy air pollution, e.g. high ozone concentrations (some photo copy machines are emitting quite a lot of that, and that is harmful to fibre paper, too).
b) Due to an official Schoeller statement both the fibre paper base and the RC paper base have the same technology (with TiO2 components) incorporated. Therefore in this regard: No differences between fibre and RC paper.
c) Billions of color prints have been printed for more than 40 years on RC paper. And they don't show the problems Ctein has talked about. Therefore I am sure that it has been a specific problem in his workflow / his surrounding / his specific material used, and not a generel RC base problem. As said before: My RC prints are all fine, even those which are decades old. Including those hanging at the walls and exposed to light daily.