Is there really cost effective FF mirrorless?

[Ko.Fe.]

They say FF mirrorless is the way to go. Like FF DSLRs went on been on the way to go decade+ ago. Back then I paid 1K USD for mint Canon 5D and it still unsurpassed by most of FF cameras in regards of nice, natural, but well saturated rendering.

Time goes by, I'm not this strong to wrestle FF DSLR on the long walks and even at home parties. And here we have some of not too heavy FF mirrorless ones. On budget and on the scale.
So I went with new RP in 2020. Paid same as I paid for used 5D back then. Basically it looks and feels as Canon Rebel.
Win-win?

Apparently not so. First, they put battery which is in use and only good match for small cameras. And on top of it they disabled low charge warnings down to just one waring message. And on top it they disabled % of remaining capacity in the deep menu.
To deal with it , I always have to have spare battery and use ECO mode. In this mode camera is lethargic to wake up. I walk with dog, hear or see birds approaching, pressing RP shutter button to wakeup and trying to focus... Forget it, birds are gone. And EVF/AF is stumbling on our dog, if she is running.

So, I would love to have more than that. My 500D could still handle it better, but it is maxed out on ISO 12800 and has retro dynamic range for colors. 🙂

I went to see A7C. Much more expensive, but smaller and battery capacity is huge. Looked into its EVF, looked how it rendered my skin of selfie.... Not my thing at all.
And why in 2021 Sony can't figure out how to Servo AF with all apertures...

Panasonic S5? Seems to have limited AF implementation and the whole L trio is not really appealing, IMO.
Pana stuck with zooms, Sigma is huge and heavy or still too big for their slow premium primes. Leica? I would never pay for those huge AF lenses such money. Nor I have those money.

I turned my eyes to Z5. Lens selection is just right!. Price is good. And it is Nikon. Turned out, Z5 sensor (from old DSLR) is not good for mirrorless.
Nikon can't fix low light noise in EVF, LCD due to this.

So, cost effective FF mirrorless? Apparently not so. To have decent performance it has to be bigger, heavier and more expensive than semi-pro DLSR.

I'm back to square one. Do I really need FF mirrorless if to have it performing decently I need twice cash and weight, size is not going to be much less than FF DSLR ... ?

 

[lynnb]

From what I can see there's nothing cost effective that meets your needs in full frame yet, Kostya. The Canon R6 is probably the most suitable camera for what you've mentioned but it's expensive. Changing systems is also expensive if you already have a set of lenses. I'll be interested to read any other opinions.

 

[jsrockit]

I would say you might be being too rough on the Z5. How about the Z6 used?

 

[pixelated]

I bought a second-hand Z6 a few weeks ago, and I am liking it quite a lot. The sensor is said to have better low-light performance than the Z5, and it's faster. I think the EVF has a bit more resolution than the Z5 as well, but I'm not certain on that.
I'm not quite sold on using it with my RF lenses, but it's brilliant with some of my AI primes.
Nikon and some retailers sell Nikon "refurbished" ones if you want something in between new and random used.
For handling and weight, it's a fair bit smaller and lighter than the DSLR's, and of course, quieter. The biggest downside for me has been that it will not autofocus the older motorless D lenses, but if you don't have any of those, then it's not a problem for you. Per my reading it has a short flange distance, so lenses from just about anything can be fitted with an adapter, and there are a zillion of them available.
The build quality seems to be good, and I've read accounts of them shrugging off drops and falls with no issues.

 

[Ko.Fe.]

Iâd say you might be being too rough on the Z5. How about the Z6 used?

I bought a second-hand Z6 a few weeks ago, and I am liking it quite a lot. The sensor is said to have better low-light performance than the Z5, and it's faster. I think the EVF has a bit more resolution than the Z5 as well, but I'm not certain on that.
I'm not quite sold on using it with my RF lenses, but it's brilliant with some of my AI primes.
Nikon and some retailers sell Nikon "refurbished" ones if you want something in between new and random used.
For handling and weight, it's a fair bit smaller and lighter than the DSLR's, and of course, quieter. The biggest downside for me has been that it will not autofocus the older motorless D lenses, but if you don't have any of those, then it's not a problem for you. Per my reading it has a short flange distance, so lenses from just about anything can be fitted with an adapter, and there are a zillion of them available.
The build quality seems to be good, and I've read accounts of them shrugging off drops and falls with no issues.

I was very enthusiastic about Z5. But bumped into question from recent new user about digital noise in Z5 EVF/LCD. I went on to search for it and google is well aware of multiple threads and even report with video.
It seems to be linked to old sensor from DLSR they have in Z5. While Z6 has totally different, newer sensor, faster processing, etc.

I liked Z5 after I checked closely Z lenses. 24-200 at good price to replace two Canon 24-105 and one 70-200 I have. And new 40mm, which I prefer on non RF cameras to 50. And 28 2.8.
40 and 24-200 are weather sealed. This will easily replace all of my Canon RF and EF lenses.
I prefer to have just a few lenses. Could do all my AF photos just with 24-200 and 28. Even only 24-200 will keep me going for a while. Slightly above 1kg with camera, which is not too far from RP and 24-105.

Now I have to google why Z6 MKII came out. I googled Z6 weight, it just we same as Z5.
I'm even more confused now...

 

[nickthetasmaniac]

Now I have to google why Z6 MKII came out. I googled Z6 weight, it just we same as Z5.
I'm even more confused now...

DPR has an overview of the key differences between the Z6 I and II here. Only real hardware changes are a second processor and second card slot. For most users the original version is going to be plenty of camera (especially with the latest firmware), particularly if cost effectiveness is important.

 

[Archiver]

The S5 is doing very well for me so far, although I have yet to really pressure test it in a full work shoot. The colours are better than my old 5D Mark II, dynamic range is way better, hardly any shadow noise, autofocus is definitely more reliable and can do face detection anywhere in the frame. Battery life isn't as good as the 5D II, but what is? My GH4 has stood up to five years of solid work and I have no reason to think the S5 will have any issues in that time, either.

I don't have many lenses for the S5, though. so I can only comment about the 50mm f1.8 and 20-60mm f3.5 native lenses. They are light, but focus quickly and accurately, and produce good quality images. Haven't tried the Sigma Contemporary primes like 24/3.5, 35/2, 65/2 yet, but I've seen good reports about them. The 35/1.4 DG DN and 85/1.4 DG DN look too big for the handling of the S5.

As others have mentioned, a secondhand Nikon Z6 might be good for you, although the lenses are quite long, and aren't cheap. Before getting the S5, the Z6 and Sony A7R III were on the list, but I'm glad I went with the S5.

 

[gavinlg]

I wholeheartedly recommend the z6 (first version - second version is an incremental update mainly for sports photographers and you won't notice unless you shoot sports). Pair it with the new 40mm f2 and the coming 28mm f2.8 if you want a truly light setup with top notch IQ. Both lenses are excellent, very lightweight, and cheap as chips. All the Z lenses are top notch actually. The 24-50mm zoom is basically a pancake zoom.

The Pana s5 is lovely with the 1.8 primes, but a bit chunkier in the body and more expensive. The sigma 'i' primes for this mount are REALLY nice.

The A7c viewfinder is tiny and the camera is weird to use.

I work in a camera store so I get to handle and test all of the above.

 

[RObert Budding]

I picked up a Fujifilm X-Pro2 a few weeks ago. So far it's fantastic, but I'm still learning my way around the camera.

 

[Ray Vonn 2023]

I'm trying to find fault with a Z6 as a body for all MF adapted lenses but I cant, apart from perhaps an AA Filter but even then is that really relevant with today's technologies? Not only could it be used for pretty much all external manual focus lenses but also Canon EF lenses with AF using the Fringer adapter (which you can't even achieve with the AF-D lenses). Apparently the AF with the Fringer adapter is just as fast/ responsive as using a Canon camera(!?). Impressive. I could honestly see myself using a Z6 without having to buy any native Nikon Z glass.

 

[jsrockit]

Unfortunately, the best FF deals are DSLRs and cameras like the original Sony A7 and A7R. They all have their faults in comparison to the latest and greatest. Every single camera made is a compromise in some way. Honestly, I would keep the RP, buy a third battery and use the turn on / turn off method instead of waiting for it to awake. I always use this method because it is faster in my experience with mirrorless cameras.

 

[JeffS7444]

Instead of changing cameras, why not change techniques? For example, even as you remove the camera from your bag, power it on by feel. This simple technique worked very well for me with the original Sony A7, which could take around 10 seconds to "boot". But not even the fastest digital camera can match the startup speed of a spring-driven mechanical camera.

Also, have you considered adapting manual focus lenses to your camera? Maybe non-electronic lenses with distance and depth of field scales will be more to your liking.

If you shoot raw, the colors you are seeing are due to your raw-processing software. For most accurate colors with any camera, I create custom camera profiles using Xrite ColorChecker Passport.

 

[Ko.Fe.]

Unfortunately, the best FF deals are DSLRs and cameras like the original Sony A7 and A7R. They all have their faults in comparison to the latest and greatest. Every single camera made is a compromise in some way. Honestly, I would keep the RP, buy a third battery and use the turn on / turn off method instead of waiting for it to awake. I always use this method because it is faster in my experience with mirrorless cameras.

Canon 6D MK II is more expensive than RP and 5D MK IV is more than Z6 MKII.
For EF FF DSLR I have heavy 24-105 and 70-200. With Z mount I could replace them with single 24-200. Weight at cost of singe EF lenses I have mentioned. And weather sealed.

I'm keeping RP long enough to know if I want to keep it.

I know, I'll will keep pressing shutter release without realizing I have turned it off. Done it with M-E 220 and stopped on-off maddens.
And I already have three batteries 🙂

Canon is not making RF lenses I want for years now. No 40 2.8 RF pancake, no compact 28 or 24. Instead I have 50 1.8 RF which is just another nifty-fifty I can't find use for anymore. Instead of common wide lens they dumped useless 16mm 2.8. And their 35 1.8 IS RF.... I just can't stand it. Ugliest lens I ever seen.

Would you keep the camera which has no lenses you want?

RF-EF adapter is heavy and bulky, turns any compact EF lens into another ugly thing on RP...

 

[willie_901]

...
So, I would love to have more than that. My 500D could still handle it better, but it is maxed out on ISO 12800 and has retro dynamic range for colors. 🙂

...

What is "retro dynamic range" and how does it affect perceived color rendering?

 

[Emile de Leon]

Use your i-phone..
Problem solved..

 

[jsrockit]

Would you keep the camera which has no lenses you want?

Definitely not... I understand completely. The Nikon might be the lesser of evils.

 

[Darthfeeble]

I got a Z7 with the 24-7- F4 refurb for $2500, I consider that cost effective.

 

[Retro-Grouch]

Like all products, cameras designs are based on market research. The goal is to please as many people as much as possible, and sell as many cameras as possible. The result is either the best of all possible worlds, or a bland and boring compromise, depending on how you look at it. I've never found the "perfect" camera; there's always some niggling detail that I don't like, but which is a feature that someone else loves. I've tried a number of cameras, and found some that suit me really well, and with them, learned to ignore the annoyances. Essentially, I've adapted to the cameras.
Digital cameras, for good or ill, inundate us with choices for customization, but you still won't find the perfect camera. Find the one that's the best compromise, and learn to live with it; ignore the marketing hype, read the spec sheets with skepticism, and use it to make photos. Ultimately, I've found that the limitations of a particular camera are far less significant than the self-imposed limitations of my vision.

 

[raid]

How about a Leica SL ?

 

[Ko.Fe.]

What is "retro dynamic range" and how does it affect perceived color rendering?

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