Leica LTM Is this "oily" lens haze?

Leica M39 screw mount bodies/lenses
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oculus

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I purchased a Leica II with Hektor 50/2.5 from a popular online dealer of used and rare photography equipment. Both the lens and the camera were described as having been CLA'd. The camera seems fine (great, actually) but I notice rainbow/oily circles in the lens. Is this "oily" lens haze? Should this have been removed by a CLA?
 
That looks like separation of elements to me, oil just shows up as a transparent haze in my experience.

If it is separation, it would mean the elements glued together would need to be heated or chemically by solvent fully separated and then re-glued to be back into full shooting shape. This is not part of a normal CLA, it takes specialized equipment to do so to factory specs. Whether factory specs are absolutely required is up to some debate, some folks have done it themselves and gotten fine results in their garage/shop with home-made tools.

I had a Summitar 50/2 Leica lens that had more than half of it showing separation in the front group and it shot OK. Flared more than an Summitar might normally, but with the big shade and not shooting directly into the sun it was basically fine. Sharp as it should be.

You can try shooting it if your intent was to use it, but as a collector piece it's value has gone down and as a lens to use it has dropped significantly.
 
Fixcinater said:
That looks like separation of elements to me, oil just shows up as a transparent haze in my experience.

If it is separation, it would mean the elements glued together would need to be heated or chemically by solvent fully separated and then re-glued to be back into full shooting shape. This is not part of a normal CLA, it takes specialized equipment to do so to factory specs. Whether factory specs are absolutely required is up to some debate, some folks have done it themselves and gotten fine results in their garage/shop with home-made tools.

I had a Summitar 50/2 Leica lens that had more than half of it showing separation in the front group and it shot OK. Flared more than an Summitar might normally, but with the big shade and not shooting directly into the sun it was basically fine. Sharp as it should be.

You can try shooting it if your intent was to use it, but as a collector piece it's value has gone down and as a lens to use it has dropped significantly.
Click to expand...

Thanks for responding. What causes the "rainbow" circles?
 
It's hard to tell from the picture but I have also encountered this "rainbow" affect on certain uncoated lenses, like the Triotar on the early Rolleicords. What I mean is: it may not be separation. I would have to see it in person and at various angles to make that determination. Have you shot with it yet?
 
The very rare, and much sought after "Rainbow Hector"! Makes all your grey day photos that much nicer.

But seriously, yeah, it's probably separation, or a breakdown of the glues causing that refraction pattern. Usually starts from the outer edge and works its way inward to the center. Might lower the contrast a bit since it's so wide spread on your example, but usually has minimal effect as long as it hasn't progressed far from the edges. My 50/2 Nikkor has separation, but I don't notice it in the photos.

Would have been nice if the seller had told you about it. See if you can get a partial refund, as it definitely detracts from the value of the lens.

PF
 
bluesun267 said:
It's hard to tell from the picture but I have also encountered this "rainbow" affect on certain uncoated lenses, like the Triotar on the early Rolleicords. What I mean is: it may not be separation. I would have to see it in person and at various angles to make that determination. Have you shot with it yet?
Click to expand...

Yes, in fact I shot a roll of Tri-X with it today. I must have been the only one in Philadelphia who was glad to see such a gray and dismal day -- perfect to test an uncoated lens!

The negatives look great, actually. I've just scanned a few for you to see. I stayed around f5.6 for most of these, but occasionally dipping into f4. I'm actually surprised at how sharp and contrasty the lens is.

Now I know someone will say/think: then what you are complaining about? Use the lens and enjoy it! Indeed. But my concern is whether the phantom rainbow circles prognosticate imminent doom for the lens.
 
I don’t think its separation. It looks like blooming to me. Blooming is a naturally occuring oxidation of uncoated glass that inspired invention of lens coating.
 
Hi,

My money's on natural blooming, so don't get it cleaned off.

Be careful of what they say about it on the internet, Taylor noted and commented on it in the 1890's and a commercial version of it was announced in the 1930's but some claim it was a secret process, not revealed until after WW2. Not secret enough to keep it out of the 30's photo magazines...

This might help:-

https://mhcocm.wordpress.com/2011/12/28/a-brief-history-of-optical-coatings/

and this is about Taylor and another of his contributions to photography:-

http://www.willbell.com/tm/ChapterB.3.pdf


Regards, David
 
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It is a separation. I had it on a summitar. I primitively tried to heat the lens and pressed it hard. I was able to get rid of the separation but it ruined the front element by millions of scratches. So the main point of the story is that "dont try to do it yourself" :)
 
I agree that it is only so called 'natural blooming'. It has no real effect and is not really a fault. Erik knows the technical details of how it happens to old lenses. Some of mine have it and it is not a problem. It looks a bit like the rainbow effect caused by a thin coating of oil on water. From what I can see it really does not look like separation.

Don't worry about it, just treat it as part of the joy of old lenses!
 
The ones say *separation*, the others say *blooming*, but -- at least as long the user of the lens doesn't get a *bleumourant* face colour -- what about ... bloomeration? :D
 
Another picture of the rainbow circles

Another picture of the rainbow circles

I am grateful for everyone's weighing in on the glass. Thank you.

Here is another picture of the rainbow/oily circles in better light. There is a slight texture to it. I should also say that it does not appear on the edges of the lens.

Many thanks, again!
 
It's hard for us to see on pictures, but you can move the lens in your hands and make a guess where the rainbow colors are. Look up where the cemented pair is (it's just one, right?) in a Hector, if it's not there, it must be blooming.
 
The separation I am used to seeing is more irregular / "blotchy", and with a translucent "amberish" tint to the affect areas...

An "11 oclock" Hektor in "feet". Wow.
 
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