Pavel+
Established
As I stated in another thread, I had my M8 stop working on the second day with a shutter error. I took it back to my dealer and he sent it off the next day for me back to Leica ( New Jersey I believe ) to get fixed. So now I'm waiting.
Before it broke down, I got about 40 shots with it the first day. I've only now had the time to look at them better and noticed that on several shots, if there was back lighting, that I would get some funky results.
All of these were about half a stop underexposed and when I brought the levels up by .5 the line jumped out at me.
Is this the classic issue that others have talked about?
I wonder if I should call the repair facility and mention this to them or do they test the cameras out thoroughly.
Before it broke down, I got about 40 shots with it the first day. I've only now had the time to look at them better and noticed that on several shots, if there was back lighting, that I would get some funky results.
All of these were about half a stop underexposed and when I brought the levels up by .5 the line jumped out at me.
Is this the classic issue that others have talked about?
I wonder if I should call the repair facility and mention this to them or do they test the cameras out thoroughly.
Tuolumne
Veteran
Assume nothing is the best policy. I would certainly call the dealer as well as Leica NJ and send them a copy of the photo.
/T
/T
Pavel+
Established
Thanks ... I think you are right. It is interesting that it is not consistent. For example the shot above has it but two other frames snapped within seconds, under the same light with the same underexposure show absolutely nothing (except a tonality that I like quite a bit 
)
Another shot of a window shows it in *****s (see below) while a similar shot shows just a hint of it - and all the others, some with harsh light .... show nothing.
Weird ... isn't it? No wonder it seems difficult for the techs to track down.
This is the worst example. There were faint shadows from the blinds mind you ... but that green banding ... well ... I've only seen that in real life after five too many beers!
So ... monday ... I'm going to call NJ and ship them a sample shot. I hope they can fix it. I guess they don't hand out new M8.2's to unfortunate customers to make em feel better, eh?
) Another shot of a window shows it in *****s (see below) while a similar shot shows just a hint of it - and all the others, some with harsh light .... show nothing.
Weird ... isn't it? No wonder it seems difficult for the techs to track down.
This is the worst example. There were faint shadows from the blinds mind you ... but that green banding ... well ... I've only seen that in real life after five too many beers!
So ... monday ... I'm going to call NJ and ship them a sample shot. I hope they can fix it. I guess they don't hand out new M8.2's to unfortunate customers to make em feel better, eh?
Pavel+
Established
Ooops. Should this be in the reported problems section? Can a mod move it if thats the case? Sorry.
Tuolumne
Veteran
You could certainly ask the dealer to replace it. I would. Two problems at the same time in a $6,000 camera!? Sounds like it should activate some kind of Lemon Law to me.
/T
/T
tmfabian
I met a man once...
it's an overload issue where a bright lightsource near the edge causes some cascade shindig or something...i don't know the exact lingo, but your sensor isn't faulty, just a side-product of the RF sensor design (something to do with the angle at which the light comes in since the lens is much closer to the sensor on an RF)
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
You'll see it on any sensor camera. It is an overflow between the pixels in high contrast situation called blooming.It can be green, but more ususally it is blue or purple. Using Capture one C4 should clear at least part of the problem up. Next time use fill flash. It should help to balance the shot. Exposing correctly should help a lot too.
nksyoon
Well-known
I had a similar problem - sent Leica an email, they asked me to send in the camera. They then said this was a known unfixable problem. They just cleaned up the camera, checked RF alignment and made sure everything else was up to spec.
See attached pic - problem is on lower right side.
See attached pic - problem is on lower right side.
Attachments
Pavel+
Established
So this isn't the problem that folks here have spoken of for which they send the camera off for, right?
Is it just coincidence that it came out in only underexposed shots - or does this simply hit once in a while?
I've seen sensor bloom but I've never seen anything like this.
On another topic, sort of, what is everyones feel about repair facilities for Leica. I wonder from some of the posts here that I've read if the shop in Solms may not be better experienced, right now at least, than the US side facilities. Any thoughts on that?
Is it just coincidence that it came out in only underexposed shots - or does this simply hit once in a while?
I've seen sensor bloom but I've never seen anything like this.
On another topic, sort of, what is everyones feel about repair facilities for Leica. I wonder from some of the posts here that I've read if the shop in Solms may not be better experienced, right now at least, than the US side facilities. Any thoughts on that?
nksyoon
Well-known
"4.3 Bright sources of light near the image edges occasionally lead to a green stripe
reaching all the way to the centre of the image. Leica is aware of this effect and its cause. Unfortunately, it won’t be possible to eliminate this effect with a firmware update. The stripes can be avoided, if it is paid attention that very bright light sources (such as headlights etc.) are not reproduced at the very edge of the image"
http://en.leica-camera.com/assets/file/download.php?filename=file_3791.pdf
reaching all the way to the centre of the image. Leica is aware of this effect and its cause. Unfortunately, it won’t be possible to eliminate this effect with a firmware update. The stripes can be avoided, if it is paid attention that very bright light sources (such as headlights etc.) are not reproduced at the very edge of the image"
http://en.leica-camera.com/assets/file/download.php?filename=file_3791.pdf
Pavel+
Established
Thanks!
sepiareverb
genius and moron
It doesn't always happen, but I've only ever seen it with a very overexposed bit at the edge of the frame.
willie_901
Veteran
All digital cameras do not have this particular flaw.
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
And which camera might that be?
Most Sensors have a problem when portions become saturated and it tends to spill over to the array. It might be a current draw issue of one part of the array dragging down others? That is a problem that I encountered this on a custom Digital sensor in 1981. My boss came up with am algorithm to undo the error and I coded it up in FORTRAN.
If the Green line or dark line appears across a uniformly lit image that is not saturated, then the sensor has issues. But in a worst case like this, I would not worry about it.
If the Green line or dark line appears across a uniformly lit image that is not saturated, then the sensor has issues. But in a worst case like this, I would not worry about it.
Pavel+
Established
When I get a camera I like to take a couple weeks worth of throwaway shots to see how the cam behaves. Under, over, backlit etc. I gives me an idea how to approach a situation when I need to get it right.
This isn't sensor blooming. Sensor blooming is adjacent to the overloaded pixels. The way I look at it .... it is a disapointment of sorts as the perfect camera (especially the one that reads my mind) is not here yet, and it indicative of ongoing refinement rather than a mature product - but on the whole of it it does not matter much. More I was interested in simply knowing if this is what to expect or if I need to worry about Body with abnormalities. If this is where the M8 sensor is at right now ... I'm fine.
Besides I'm looking, not for perfection ( I had that with the D700) but a particular look (for a project I'm working on for a museum where I'm using 6x6 film, where it would be great to use this as well). I value what I've seen a bit and read about regarding the M8's sensor design choices. A super weak anti-alias filter. I want ... and I dont' have the moola for a MF back (yet!) so I will likely be very content with the IQ despite the known gremlins.
On the other hand it should be said that in over 250,000 shots with several Nikon and Canon bodies, where I frequently shoot straight into the light (it gives a great look - and sells well) ... I've never seen this kind of thing. Shooting into the light often results in a racer looking like he is on a mirror reflecting the sun. No stripes ... of any sort. Ever.
It should also be said - so what!? Personally I'm tired of both SLR's and chasing the Nth degree of IQ and lens sharpness. Neither attribute is the holy grail. The Leica handling is! As far as my values go.
Some admittedly unremarkable shots, just to show what I mean by difficult light where the highlights had to be sacrificed: No lines or IQ problems though:
and the type of shot I'm likely to do with the Leica (but Post processed) of the wife. She was completely back lit and her hair blown. The highlights are brought back as much as I know how in post but still look pretty bad. I like it though ... and the low contrast of that lens as well.
I had to ADD grain to this one! Maybe I'm a Tri-X kind of guy at heart. A film rangefinder seems to be the purest rangefinder experience to me. The M8 was, I guess, digital insecurity. ??
This isn't sensor blooming. Sensor blooming is adjacent to the overloaded pixels. The way I look at it .... it is a disapointment of sorts as the perfect camera (especially the one that reads my mind
) is not here yet, and it indicative of ongoing refinement rather than a mature product - but on the whole of it it does not matter much. More I was interested in simply knowing if this is what to expect or if I need to worry about Body with abnormalities. If this is where the M8 sensor is at right now ... I'm fine.Besides I'm looking, not for perfection ( I had that with the D700) but a particular look (for a project I'm working on for a museum where I'm using 6x6 film, where it would be great to use this as well). I value what I've seen a bit and read about regarding the M8's sensor design choices. A super weak anti-alias filter. I want ... and I dont' have the moola for a MF back (yet!
) so I will likely be very content with the IQ despite the known gremlins.On the other hand it should be said that in over 250,000 shots with several Nikon and Canon bodies, where I frequently shoot straight into the light (it gives a great look - and sells well) ... I've never seen this kind of thing. Shooting into the light often results in a racer looking like he is on a mirror reflecting the sun. No stripes ... of any sort. Ever.
It should also be said - so what!? Personally I'm tired of both SLR's and chasing the Nth degree of IQ and lens sharpness. Neither attribute is the holy grail. The Leica handling is! As far as my values go.
Some admittedly unremarkable shots, just to show what I mean by difficult light where the highlights had to be sacrificed: No lines or IQ problems though:
and the type of shot I'm likely to do with the Leica (but Post processed) of the wife. She was completely back lit and her hair blown. The highlights are brought back as much as I know how in post but still look pretty bad. I like it though ... and the low contrast of that lens as well.
I had to ADD grain to this one!
Maybe I'm a Tri-X kind of guy at heart. A film rangefinder seems to be the purest rangefinder experience to me. The M8 was, I guess, digital insecurity. ??
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Tuolumne
Veteran
These seem like the classic D300/D700 shots that Nikon likes to use to promote their professional dSLRs. Interesting that your preferred style of shooting them is with a rangefinder camera!
/T
/T
Pavel+
Established
Well, the sports shots are history. I never did like shooting sports. How'd I get talked into that, anyways?
Rangefinder is a new experience for me. I used to shoot fashion a long time ago. I never really have done the environmental kind of portraits that I think an RF is great for but who's to say that you can't teach an old dog new tricks. I have recently been on a binge ... deleting old stuff. Only some of the family, portraits and a few abstracts are going to stay around on my drives. I think the RF should be something different for me and thus invigorating. The details .... don't matter too much to me. Image quality and super sharp lenses can be nice, but so can soft lenses and far from perfect setups. But simplicity and responsiveness are important to me under any condition. Ya gotta get the shot first ... and foremost.
I think I'm going to like the M8, despite ... or perhaps because of .... it's unique characteristics. I hope after I get my M8 back from repair of the broken shutter that it is reliable from then on .... but I'm not going to get my shorts into knots if it isn't. There is a film RF or two on my horizon, so that can fill in if ever something goes wrong. I think that all of us here have a vested interest in Rangefinder photography being around as a choice against the "me too" cams that dominate the market. I think we should tone down the more strident criticisms, and perhaps adjust our expectations more to the reality of the day. Leica is trying their best - and it seems like a darn great set of results - despite the occasional bump. I want to learn RF ... and enjoy it. Life's too short for any other attitude .... don't you think?
Rangefinder is a new experience for me. I used to shoot fashion a long time ago. I never really have done the environmental kind of portraits that I think an RF is great for but who's to say that you can't teach an old dog new tricks. I have recently been on a binge ... deleting old stuff. Only some of the family, portraits and a few abstracts are going to stay around on my drives. I think the RF should be something different for me and thus invigorating. The details .... don't matter too much to me. Image quality and super sharp lenses can be nice, but so can soft lenses and far from perfect setups. But simplicity and responsiveness are important to me under any condition. Ya gotta get the shot first ... and foremost.
I think I'm going to like the M8, despite ... or perhaps because of .... it's unique characteristics. I hope after I get my M8 back from repair of the broken shutter that it is reliable from then on .... but I'm not going to get my shorts into knots if it isn't. There is a film RF or two on my horizon, so that can fill in if ever something goes wrong. I think that all of us here have a vested interest in Rangefinder photography being around as a choice against the "me too" cams that dominate the market. I think we should tone down the more strident criticisms, and perhaps adjust our expectations more to the reality of the day. Leica is trying their best - and it seems like a darn great set of results - despite the occasional bump. I want to learn RF ... and enjoy it. Life's too short for any other attitude .... don't you think?
JNewell
Leica M Recidivist
I have used Leicas since the early 70s, only for pleasure not business. I went through a phase where I really tried to make the M system a do-it-all system. I had several Visos, 400mm and 560mm Telyts, etc. It just didn't work right and the difference would be greater today. For me, the M is irreplaceable but limited. For what it's worth Pavel, if you haven't seen this article: http://www.phototechmag.com/articles/articles/200705/0703_Dubovoy.LM8.pdf you might enjoy scanning it briefly. His reaction to the files that come out of the M8 agrees with my own.
willie_901
Veteran
Any camera but the M8. I have only seen a "it", the green vertical bar, in M8 images.
You could have meant "it" to mean all possible artifacts (and there are many ways to create artifacts) possible when one over grossly exposes an image with a digital camera.
Since all the poster before yours specifically discussed the well-known M8 green bar artifact how unreasonable was I to assume you too were discussing a green vertical bar artifact?
You could have meant "it" to mean all possible artifacts (and there are many ways to create artifacts) possible when one over grossly exposes an image with a digital camera.
Since all the poster before yours specifically discussed the well-known M8 green bar artifact how unreasonable was I to assume you too were discussing a green vertical bar artifact?
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