Leica LTM It just arrived yesterday.....The 1946 "Half Race" Leica IIIC for Repairs/Restoration

Leica M39 screw mount bodies/lenses
Tom, I haven't seen the IIIcK Kugellager referred to before as "half-race." What does this refer to? Something about the ballbearing race, perhaps?
 
Rob-F said:
Tom, I haven't seen the IIIcK Kugellager referred to before as "half-race." What does this refer to? Something about the ballbearing race, perhaps?
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Rob,

Please note: the "Kugellager" cameras and "Half Race" cameras are TWO different animals :)

The kugellager cameras have multiple ball bearings in the shutter mechanism, for smoother operation under extreme cold weather conditions (used first in Norway and then later in Russia and also High Altitude Tests conducted by the German Airforce)

These were produced from 1943 to 1945 - below is the thread that I started with more information about them.....

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45057

The half race cameras have the half race bearings in the shutter mechanism, which were a simplified version of the former shutter design featuring different and fewer bearings in which the future shutter design for the IIIF would be based and developed on

These were produced from 1945 to early 1946 only - below is the thread that explains more about them.....

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47102

Please have a look there and that will hopefully give you a better idea about what all this gibberish is about

I think the cameras look really good too.....but there`s more to them then just all that :)

Tom
 
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LeicaTom said:
And a postwar Leica IIIC is still the best way to go when you are breaking into the vintage Leica scene, watch out for bad pitted and peeling chrome and sometimes vulcanite and shutter damage, but still there`s lot`s of 1946/47 IIIC`s out there coming out of ex- US Army Officers estates enough to fill a wheel barrow up with.........
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Not to completely hijack the thread, but what would you say the proportion of IIIc's from 46-47 first came through the PX system?
 
landsknechte said:
Not to completely hijack the thread, but what would you say the proportion of IIIc's from 46-47 first came through the PX system?
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Ohhh that`s no hijack, good question.......I`m glad you mentioned it, I appreciate your nterest in the postwar IIIC`s :)

I think 85% of all Leica IIIC production from May 1945 to Mid 1947 were issued to the US Army, either directly to the Signal Corps Photographers Branch and then as they were established by spring 1946 into the US Army Post Exchange Systems in Germany and Austria
*Please Note: after the Kardon folly the US Military was really anxious to have the Signal Corps outfitted with NEW cameras as quickly as possible....... so only days after Wetzlar was occupied by the Allies, cameras were being pressed into service for use in the ETO and PTO by the US Army*
(The PX services came later....)

15% of the rest of production was thinly spread across Europe, mainly Switzerland and Sweden

This is all a bit of guessing........ but I`m researching more on the entire postwar period up to 1947/48
*currently the Leitz factory archives are NOT accessible, but I can only hope that this status changes in the near future

And what history shows us is by 1949 Ernst Leitz NYC had restarted it`s re-importing of the Leica back to the USA and the BRD was being established with it`s new democratic government, sending Germany on it`s way to becoming the Economic Wonder of the 1950`s

Tom

PS: After 1946 many Leica`s were also sent across the globe to wherever the
US Navy and Airforce were stationed, I also recall an old friend during my tour of duty in Germany
(a retired US Army Major)
who bought his IIIF in the Tokyo PX in 1950 along with some early Nikkor lenses, he ended up with more Japanese glass then German.....I thought he was crazy, now I know why he worked with them :)
 
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I'm actually a WWII reenactor with a Signal Corps photographer impression, so that is certainly an intriguing possibility given my interests. It's yet another bit of information that makes me chomp at the bit all the more eagerly in hopes that the archives will someday, somehow, be accessable to us mortals.

Thanks,
--Chris
 
landsknechte said:
I'm actually a WWII reenactor with a Signal Corps photographer impression, so that is certainly an intriguing possibility given my interests. It's yet another bit of information that makes me chomp at the bit all the more eagerly in hopes that the archives will someday, somehow, be accessable to us mortals.

Thanks,
--Chris
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Chris,

Well, most of the Combat Photographers with the USASC were shooting with big stuff, large format stuff for the Military, but their "personal" cameras for TIGHT situations were Leica`s and Contax`s (with 35mm and 50mm lenses)

Leica IIIC`s even in their early 1940/41 form rarely made it into the hands of a US Solider until after hostilities ended in 1945, but some were used by the British Military - smuggled into England through the "Shetland Bus" (that information is somewhere in the forums) from Norway and also through the RAF flying candlestine Mosquito missions to Sweden for Military goods barters

My opinion, for a really good Reenactment look I`d go for a Black Leica II or III or a Chrome IIIb for "correctness" with a f3.5 50mm Elmar with a "used" little black FISON hood, with the "rare" brown everyday FLATNOSE case that`s if you are doing the WW2 look (SEE THE PHOTOGRAPHERS)
in Darryl F. Zanuck`s 1962 classic war epic "The Longest Day" for the "best" impression
(I was thinking up of doing a Korean War era impression Civilian Corespondent look, if I ever attend the shows *Reading, Pa. Show etc.*)
That way I can hang a stepped rewind platform IIIC around my neck with a LTM Nikkor f1.4 50mm/or f2.0 85mm and still be correct ala David Duncan Douglas

Tom

PS: I read in your signature that you have a Leica III to IIIa conversion and a prewar Elmar - there you GO!
That`s about as good as it gets for having a correct WW2 Combat Photographer`s camera :)
 
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My IIIc is even less usable for reenacting, as it's a IIIf conversion. Still, it's neat to know there might be an interesting history there.

I fell in with a group that portrays the 3rd Infantry Division, and it just so happens that they had a rather eclectically equipped ad hoc photo section. Most of the guys were infantrymen and engineers that were pulled off the line just after Anzio when they formed the unit. As my quest for a Signal Corps PH-47 (the military Speed Graphic) hasn't borne fruit, it works out well for me. I use a 1939 chrome IIIa conversion with a 1937 Elmar 50/3.5, 1937 Elmar 90/4, and a 1947 Hektor 135/4.5. Kodak Retina I tucked in the pocket as a backup. GE DW-48 meter. All sorts of fun stuff that'll probably bore the pants off of the rest of the forum. :rolleyes:

I'm very fortunate to have some great photographs of the unit to work from:

http://www.warfoto.com/
http://www.dogfacesoldiers.org/
 
Tom, thanks for the clarification. I was assuming the K model and the "half-race were the same model--I made that association on account of the models having ball bearings. I've got it now! There is always more to learn about Leicas!
 
BronicaLee said:
my vote is for the black lizzard...
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I`ve decided that I`m going with the LEVANT BLACK covering for #3974xx

The damaged film cassette in #3974xx was removed today, it was a Kodak Slide Film one dating from the late 1960`s early 70`s, very badly twisted and tangled up inside along with some brown yarn!!!!

I figure the camera`s been out of commision for at least 30 years maybe more?
(thanks for all the hard work Leo - the camera is currently at the "Doctors" house having all this work done to it)

Now this camera will be photographed through and through while it`s apart to document part of some extensive research that I`m doing about these postwar era cameras and details about the "Half Race" shutter mechanism

The curtains on #3974xx are burn hole damaged, but it looks like they might be fixable afterall?
When this is all done I`ll have a killer "user" camera, good to see her come back to life after sitting around for more than 30+ years in a damaged state

More about all that soon, I`m sure Leo can tell it all better, about how nasty the camera was inside........



And LOOKY LOOKY! another stepped rewind platform IIIC I just bought off of evilbay tonight.................


LeicaIICebay1.jpeg


It`s a camera at the end of the #393xxx series run (maybe August 1945?)
*I can`t get access to postwar Leitz records right now so I have to approximate the delivery dates of my cameras, loosely based on what I know from pre May 1945 records*

It`s going to need a FULL CLA and NEW CURTAINS as well
so this one`s going to the "Doctor" too :D

Tom

PS: The SUMMAR is already SOLD! - Thanks Chris!
 
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landsknechte said:
http://www.warfoto.com/
http://www.dogfacesoldiers.org/
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Chris,

Thanks for the links there :)

That amazing 1945 IIIC K "Grey" that I owned for about 3 months
(and now resides quietly again with it`s former owner)
was a camera used by a US Army Signal Corps officer after late May 1945 in the ETO

The camera had it`s original embossed Leica everyday "flat nose" brown leather case with the officer`s name in gold leaf on the top of the case
*this camera was one of about roughly 500 cameras that were presented to
ranking staff officers who were with the US Army Occupying Forces in May/June/July 1945*

I want to figure out a way to trace the military career of this officer so some light can be shed on the camera`s early years.......

I do suspect it was used to photograph various cities in wartorn Germany 1945/46 (as long as the officer was on duty in Europe)
Sadly there were no photographs with the camera when it was sold from the officer`s estate and the owner didn`t have a way to contact the surviving relatives

I wonder where I have to start to find a deceased officer`s military records?
(All we have to go by is his name and that he was in the Signal Corps)

Tom
 
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I just started to refurbish my IIIc (a 409xxx) so I guess its from 1946. I want to change the covering: I had to remove a flash sinc which was of course not original and by the way was not wired at all so wasn't functional: so there is now a gap in the body. Anyway I have stripped the thing but can't get off the two round lenses in at the front; the rings came off smootly but the lenses are quite stuck. How to remove these lenses (and what is around them - kind of black ring - ) without scratching the body? :rolleyes: .

thanks

PS, I am still in doubt whether to paint it black, gray or have it rechromed :cool: .
 
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Ron (Netherlands) said:
I just started to refurbish my IIIc (a 409xxx) so I guess its from 1946.
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I think that's a 1947 serial number. Not sure though.

LeicaTom said:
I want to figure out a way to trace the military career of this officer so some light can be shed on the camera`s early years.......

I do suspect it was used to photograph various cities in wartorn Germany 1945/46 (as long as the officer was on duty in Europe)
Sadly there were no photographs with the camera when it was sold from the officer`s estate and the owner didn`t have a way to contact the surviving relatives

I wonder where I have to start to find a deceased officer`s military records?
(All we have to go by is his name and that he was in the Signal Corps)

Tom
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PM or email the name on the officer, and I'll start working on it. I know some of the records are limited to the family of the soldier, but there is a lot that can be had courtesy of the FOIA. I know a lot of people that are obsessive researchers, so I'll see what I can turn up.

I just sent you an email about the Summar, BTW.

--Chris
 
You need to be the vet or the next of kin to get the full records, but through the FOIA the list of items not deemed to be an invasion of privacy is pretty useful of our purposes:

FREEDOM OF INFORMATION ACT (FOIA)

As it Pertains to Military Records

The public has access to certain military service information without the veteran's authorization (or that of the next-of-kin of deceased veterans). Examples of information which may be available from Official Military Personnel Files without an unwarranted invasion of privacy include:

* Name
* Service Number
* Rank
* Dates of Service
* Awards and decorations
* City/town and state of last known address including date of the address


If the veteran is deceased:

* Place of birth
* Geographical location of death
* Place of burial
 
landsknechte said:
PM or email the name on the officer, and I'll start working on it

I just sent you an email about the Summar, BTW.

--Chris
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Chris,

I think this man may also have had a career possibly with the US Dept Of Agriculture under President Truman?

I`ll get the name to you shortly

Tom
 
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LeicaTom,

I'm not normally like this but...please be aware that in researching the ownership of old Leicas that may have seen or been close to hositilities, there may be a chance that you might cause upset, grief or end up somewhere you really didn't want to go.

Enough said, but my attitude towards one of the cameras I have is not what it was when I started.

Michael
 
Dralowid said:
LeicaTom,

I'm not normally like this but...please be aware that in researching the ownership of old Leicas that may have seen or been close to hositilities, there may be a chance that you might cause upset, grief or end up somewhere you really didn't want to go.

Enough said, but my attitude towards one of the cameras I have is not what it was when I started.

Michael
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Michael,

I understand where you are coming from, but in the case of this one camera, it`s very impersonal, the former owners deceased and we have no contact to the family whatsoever, so it`s mearly a look into the man`s military career

They check political leaders in the country, to see if they skipped out on Vietnam, so checking the location of someone in the ETO in 1945/46 should`nt be a big deal, I`m not turning over any headstones, I`m just after some general historical facts like maybe what unit or company the man belonged to etc.

Tom

PS: 99.5% of all the camera`s I research were owned by ex- American GI`s but, there`s a very slight chance that another Allied member owned such a camera as well
I personally don`t really concern myself with anything other then the delivery history and some general facts about the camera, I doubt that I`ll really land a camera that was used by anyone really famous, I think all of General Eisenhower`s Leica belong to his estate still........:D

But the reality of it all , must of these camera if not all, Photographed the death, destruction and aftermath of Postwar Germany and Austria, while they were in the hands of US Servicemen and women serving in the ETO, they were recorders of that time`s current history, plain and simple, it was`nt a good time for many people, but nonetheless the cameras were there for that one reason to record the aftermath of the war and it`s surroundings, that`s why Leitz had pressed cameras directly into the hands of the Occupying Forces only days after Wetzlar was taken, most of the cameras that were issued in May/June and July 1945 went directly to members of the US Army Signal Corps Branch who were busy Photographing the outcome of the war

I personally use them now to Photograph, scantly clad beautiful pinup girls
and just as the famous Russ Meyer once said.......
"I Photograph women becuase it`s fun to do, it was a refreshing change to what I was used to doing before."
(Russ Meyer was a Combat Photographer in France and Germany 1944/45)

I think the cameras are now if not for the first time among pleasant company and being used for a really fun job!
 
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LeicaTom said:
HRLeica4jpeg



The other "odd" thing about this camera is that the instruction plate is fixed to the camera wrong, it`s upside down, well many will say, this was just put in wrong after a CLA.......but no, this is the SECOND camera I have seen in the 397xxx series that has the upside down instruction plate, this was possibly a workshop mistake with the camera run for the 13th (bad luck day?) well, just strange that both cameras of the same run and same day have this oddity about them?
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Well, I`ve discovered that this plate placement was INTENTIONAL and more than likely planned by the employee at Leitz who fitted the bottom plates to the cameras on that day in 1946 (February 13th) as a JOKE on the Americans, something humorous to add to some Leica history.......

I`d like to hear from anyone out there on the RFF if you have a Leica IIIC built between the numbers 397208 to 397519 that was the batch order from 13.02.46

I bet your instruction plate is on upside down! :)

Tom

PS: #3972xx and #3974xx BOTH have the instruction plate UPSIDE DOWN
they both have just been CLA`d by the "doctor" and I am KEEPING the instruction plates as they were put on the cameras, the wrong way :D

I just won`t let my assistant (*blonde*) ever load them she`ll be confused as hell when she opens the bottom plate ;) (jk!)
 
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Dralowid said:
LeicaTom,

I'm not normally like this but...please be aware that in researching the ownership of old Leicas that may have seen or been close to hositilities, there may be a chance that you might cause upset, grief or end up somewhere you really didn't want to go.

Enough said, but my attitude towards one of the cameras I have is not what it was when I started.

Michael
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Two things to keep in mind...

Objects themselves aren't capable of evil acts.

The history of a given object is there, whether you know about it or not.

In any event, researching this sort of thing through public archives is quite a bit more impersonal and distant than giving the grandkids a call.
 
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