Trius
Waiting on Maitani
Jaap: I was looking at some old Agfachromes the other day that look great except for some fungus-looking stuff, but that is totally my fault due to storage. Interestingly, the Kodachromes don't have any of that (that I have noticed) ... not wanting to disagree, just observing. Nothing is 100% guaranteed, of course.
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
You know what the real hammer will be with digital files? If global warming will pitch us all into a post-apocalyptic society without the power to use computers......
Dan States
Established
The sad fact is that while it might be very possible to recover digital images 50 years from now, it's likely nobody is going to bother. You will be dead and so will most of they people who would give a damn about what you took pictures of. The tendancy for many to file images digitally without printing means they will be lost to time the day after you croak.
It used to be a custom to store photographs in the family bible. I have photographs from the 1860's in ours that look great. The print is what counts...without that you haven't made a damned thing.
It used to be a custom to store photographs in the family bible. I have photographs from the 1860's in ours that look great. The print is what counts...without that you haven't made a damned thing.
Sailor Ted
Well-known
Ben Z said:BTW as a representative of the Loyal Order of Parasitic Consumers I extend our heartfelt gratitude to hosts such as yourself
We weren't talking about "over the years", rather an arbitrary 5-year period of obsolesence for digital cameras and expiration of film. I can buy and process a 36-exp roll of slide film for around $15. If a new M8 @ $4800 depreciates to a terminal value of say $500 after 5 years, the $4300 depreciation would be offset by roughly 5 rolls per month. Negating the photographic promiscuity fostered by the "no-cost effect" of shooting digital, that's probably on the high-end of average for a serious amateur. So while I can see hitting the break-even point I can't see any economic windfall coming from buying an expensive digital camera vs shooting film. My $800 20D and $1400 RD-1 will pay for themselves much sooner, and if they happen to keep on clicking, I'll be in black ink well inside of 5 years. As long as I don't try to put a dollar figure on the added time I have to spend diddling with post-processing that's unncessary with slides
Ben where in your above account is the cost for a scanner? So add at least $1000 dollars- I know you can get them for less but the results would not be to my liking and before you chime in, I’ve just reviewed your gallery so I’m 100% positive of this. Next in order to show a break-even comparison over a five-year period you showed the M8 to have no more then a $500 re-sale value.
Ben Z said:
However in this post you place its value in five years for a used M8 at "well more then $1000" add another $500. Let’s see $1000 plus $500 equals $1500 in favor of the M8. However for me this number would be thousands of dollars higher in favor of the M8 as I shoot far more in a five year period then in your above scenario. I guess your old used M6 is not the bargain you project to be when all the facts and figures are accounted for (not to mention the time wasted as HAnkg has so aptly noted in his previous post).
Last edited:
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
Dan States said:
Oh- but I have got loads of prints - probably will be put out with the trash when I die.....
Trius
Waiting on Maitani
Jaap: I doubt that, especially if they look good as Agfachrome.
rsl
Russell
Up to a point, Kodachrome actually inproves with age. It loses some of its exaggerated color saturation after it sits around for 50 years or so. Here's one from the ceiling of a Buddhist temple outside Taegu, Korea in 1953. This one needs to be re-scanned, but it gives you an idea of how Kodachrome holds up.
Attachments
Sailor Ted
Well-known
Where are you going to get Kodachrome in five years?
rsl
Russell
Sailor Ted said:
Ted, To me the M8 or R-D1 is for a particular kind of photography -- specifically, street photography. For almost anything else I'll use my D2X or D100 or both. I spent many hours today doing street work with the R-D1. The results were fine for street photography, but not quite what I'd expect for, say, the kind of work I did last summer with the D2X on deserted prairie farmhouses and dying prairie towns.
Yes, I wouldn't want to be in China or the South Pacific with a busted camera either, but the M8 can break too. I'd be a lot more likely to trust my well-sealed D2X than the unsealed M8 in those environments.
In my experience Leica print quality has always been exceptional, assuming you did a good job with film processing and printing -- either gelatin-silver or digital. But to say its print quality is unlike anything else may be a bit of an exaggeration. Depends on what else you're talking about. As far as I'm concerned, the huge advantage of a rangefinder camera is the fact that you can zone-focus on the street and shoot with absolutly no delay. In street photography the print quality needs to be as good as you can make it, but it's never going to be the equivalent of fine-grain film in an 11 x 14 view camera, or even what you can get with a 12.4 megapixel DSLR with a fine Nikon lens on a tripod.
I very much want to see Leica recover from their boo-boos. As I said, I had a serious love affair with my M4, and for thirty years I've regretted selling it. But nostalgia for a lost love is no reason to dump five grand into a camera that's almost, but not quite ready for prime time.
I hope you're right and I hope Leica gets it together by summer or next Christmas. If they do I'll sell my R-D1 too and switch. If not, I'll keep hanging on, waiting for my lost love.
Last edited:
Trius
Waiting on Maitani
I'm raiding KM-25's stash.Sailor Ted said:
And don't forget, I'm about 3 miles from Great Yellow Father HQ, so I have special sources .... yeah, that's right.
Don't know where others will get theirs.
Sailor Ted
Well-known
rsl,
I hear you- but hang in there an improved M8 with "less" IR sensitivity is around the corner- I can feel it : ) No I would not want to go anywhere remote without my M6 as back-up along with a couple hundred rolls of Velvia "just in case." That said I am sure that between my R-D1 and M8 or two M8's I'll have the digital side covered but I too am waiting before purchasing my next M8.
As to print quality you'll just have to see what I mean and perhaps I can FTP you a raw file or two. This camera is significant in this medium and I agree on the street photog view- this is my first love however... with a tripod and backpack it's a compelling landscape camera easily the equal of Canon at a fraction of the weight and bulk but with a different print look that sets your work apart.
Cheers and I look forward to seeing you on the M side of digital very soon : )
I hear you- but hang in there an improved M8 with "less" IR sensitivity is around the corner- I can feel it : ) No I would not want to go anywhere remote without my M6 as back-up along with a couple hundred rolls of Velvia "just in case." That said I am sure that between my R-D1 and M8 or two M8's I'll have the digital side covered but I too am waiting before purchasing my next M8.
As to print quality you'll just have to see what I mean and perhaps I can FTP you a raw file or two. This camera is significant in this medium and I agree on the street photog view- this is my first love however... with a tripod and backpack it's a compelling landscape camera easily the equal of Canon at a fraction of the weight and bulk but with a different print look that sets your work apart.
Cheers and I look forward to seeing you on the M side of digital very soon : )
Sailor Ted
Well-known
Trius said:I'm raiding KM-25's stash.
And don't forget, I'm about 3 miles from Great Yellow Father HQ, so I have special sources .... yeah, that's right.
Don't know where others will get theirs.
OK smart guy where are you going to get it developed? rsl
Russell
Sailor Ted said:
In five years you might get it out of your freezer if you're a film fanatic. In ten years you'll have to make it yourself. Three or four times in the past year I've talked to guys selling prints at art fairs who swear they'll never give up film. All of them said they've bought huge quantities of black and white paper and stuck it in freezers. But in fifteen years gelatin-silver's going to be used about as much as wet plates are today. There'll still be a few cranks around selling gelatin-silver prints because they're "retro," same way a few people are making and selling Daguerrotypes right now.
KM-25
Well-known
Sailor Ted said:
I think it might last until the 75 year anniversary, that will be in 2010. In the meantime, only one variety is made now, K-64. I now have some 1,600 rolls for my project, that ought to do er'.
There are some remaining stocks of recently discontinued KL-200 at Adorama, Freestyle, Hunts etc, but it won't last long. I cleaned B&H out of it Friday.
KM-25
Well-known
Sailor Ted said:
Dwayne's has said it will be able to soup it for at least one year, if not two after the announcement of the discontinuation of all Kodachrome. The lab in Europe closed in September, the one in Japan will close at the end of the year.
I figure Kodak will wait at least until the first quarter of 08 if not longer to nix Kodachrome, that gives us about 3-6 years I think.
Keep in mind to give about 6 months to a year after the last expiration date to get it processed.
I am not taking any chances, I am turning away most commercial work starting in June so I can hit the road full time.
KM-25
Well-known
rsl said:
I am one of the cranks, age 39..
.I have found in the fine art market traditional prints sell at a ratio of 10/1 over digital. I see this trend gaining strength as buyers look for something less computer derived and more hands on.
Can't say I blame them.
Trius
Waiting on Maitani
Like I said, I'm about 3 miles from ...Sailor Ted said:
Do you really Think Dwayne's is the only place to get Kodachrome developed?
Grasshopper leads by example!I am one of the cranks, age 39..
AusDLK
Famous Photographer
More and more I think I'll be finding new homes for my two R-D1's soon...
For street photography, my first love, I just don't think any digital is even close match for my M7 with a Tri-Elmar and as a backup I'm looking forward to the R4A with my Konica Dual 21-35mm. Film processing and scanning is just part of the formula for better or worse.
For anything else, I think I'll learn to love some DSLR camera or rely on the trustly Panasonic Lumix FX01 that I (almost) always have on my belt.
I see no future for digital RF photography I'm sorry to say. Just too many compromises... unless ZI, CV, or (heaven forbid) Leica ask for my sage advice. (I do have the perfect design if they want to know -- and it's pretty darn simple.)
For street photography, my first love, I just don't think any digital is even close match for my M7 with a Tri-Elmar and as a backup I'm looking forward to the R4A with my Konica Dual 21-35mm. Film processing and scanning is just part of the formula for better or worse.
For anything else, I think I'll learn to love some DSLR camera or rely on the trustly Panasonic Lumix FX01 that I (almost) always have on my belt.
I see no future for digital RF photography I'm sorry to say. Just too many compromises... unless ZI, CV, or (heaven forbid) Leica ask for my sage advice.
(I do have the perfect design if they want to know -- and it's pretty darn simple.)
Last edited:
swoop
Well-known
tedwhite said:
Very true. The Leica M8 is 1. A bit too costly for me at this point and 2. Not at all what I was expecting of Leica.
Until I'm satisfied. I work with my M7 and a Canoscan 9950F.
HAnkg
Well-known
I can understand preferring B+W silver based film or K25 scanned on a drum scanner to digital -but 135 dye based color film scanned on a desktop scanner, the RD1 or a point & shoot. I don't get it. People shred the M8 as a POS and then happily use alternatives that deliver output that is clearly inferior to what can be obtained with an M8 (or 5D)?
Last edited: