Jammed (set before advance) shutter repair?

E

Eugen Mezei

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Hello!

One often read not to change speeds on Leica type shutters before cocking it. It is also told that this would damage the shutter.
OK... but what when this happens? I could get nowhere an instruction how to repair a shutter damaged by mishandling it exactly as described above.

Eugen
 
Depends what camera it is for a start...and what breaks! Sometimes they don't actually break, just get the slow-speed mechanism in a tangle (assuming it has one). For the FSU cameras, you'd need to remove the top plate and see.
 
there was a thread about solution for this but i cant find it. :( if i am not wrong you should advance shutter as much as it can without force, then rotate speed selector clockwise to the end of scale, shoot, and repeat process until you can cock it normally...
 
I had been meaning to ask a question myself about what does actually break if you try to set the shutter without cocking first. I couldn't understand why a book I have on Leicas ("The Leica Way" by Andrew Matheson - Focal Press 1953) does not give any warning about this. From what wolves3012 has said, maybe it is the slow-speed mechanism on the FSU cameras that causes the problem.

Does this perhaps mean that it is not a danger on the early cameras without slow speeds? It's hard to believe any cameras at all would have survived if they could be damaged by such a simple error.
 
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wolves3012 said:
Depends what camera it is for a start...and what breaks! Sometimes they don't actually break, just get the slow-speed mechanism in a tangle (assuming it has one). For the FSU cameras, you'd need to remove the top plate and see.
Click to expand...

It is a Zorki 4 in this particular case.
Don't know if something is broken.

Eugen
 
Grytpype said:
Does this perhaps mean that it is not a danger on the early cameras without slow speeds? It's hard to believe any cameras at all would have survived if they could be damaged by such a simple error.
Click to expand...

My understanding from various sources as from own experience is that on the cameras without the slow speeds (FSU and Leica) what happens is only that the speed on the dial doesn't correspond with the real shutter speed. In fact you need to rerotate the dial speed so that the little pins go in their corresponding holes again. Then it works like before
In the case of the short speeds something gets damaged, but I don't know myself what exactly.

Eugen
 
In the Leica book I mentioned, the only reason given for cocking the shutter before setting the speed is the fact that, of course, you can't see what speed you're setting it to if you don't. He suggests you can set the speed first if you know where to set the control. Has anyone heard of this problem occurring on a Leica, or only FSU cameras?

If you do find out what's broken, Eugen, I hope you'll let us know!
 
Here are the answers:

If the camera has no slow speeds, it doesn't really matter except for a couple of things. If you try and set the speed, you're guessing because the dial rotates and the index mark doesn't (this isn't true for FED 2 or Zorki C, 2C, 5 and 6). Now, however, you could accidentally try to go from B to 1/500 or vice-versa and break the limit pin that's supposed to prevent this.

If the camera has slow-speeds, you can turn the dial too far such that when you wind on you will force the slow-speed mechanism beyond it's normal travel and break that. If you realise you've set the speed before cocking and don't know where it really is set, just wind VERY gently. Any extra force means STOP. Now lift the dial and turn it clockwise as far as possible. Repeat these steps until the shutter is cocked then set the speed you want and carry on as normal.

The reason the problems don't apply to a Leica is because the slow-speed dial is separate and works quite differently from an FSU.
 
This subject seems to be a matter of endless debate. I've read that, at least in the case of Kievs, this is not an issue. But some insist that it is true of all FSU cameras. What are we to believe?

The fact that the shutter speed dial revolves upon release of the shutter was true of all LTM cameras, regardless of country of origin. So why were FSU cameras vulnerable, and not Leicas? And how is one to know how how a years-old and maybe well-used camera was treated? Did every Russky that bought a camera know this and observe the correct procedure? That's probably doubtful.

Chances are that, upon buying a used FSU camera, whatever damage there may be should be apparent right away. I've bought a bunch of Kievs and Zorkis, and they all seem to sound as if the shutter is firing. Could they all have been repaired properly? Or was there damage to begin with?

This brings up the question of whom you buy the camera from. Given that it's a royal pain to re-ship a camera back to wherever it came from, no wonder there are always questions about which sellers are more reliable. Yuri at Fedka in NYC has a well-deserved reputation for going over his merchandise before sale and making sure things are on the up-and-up. His 'ratings' are probably as dependble as anyone's, and if he says it's "as is", he is probably telling you something.

In the case of the medium-format Kiev 88s, there are companies that import new ones and get them into proper operation. Needless to say, you pay for the difference, but the extra $$ may be worth it. Whether or not a used camera can be put into the same category is probably very much open to question. It used to be said that the Kowa Six was "the poor man'[s Hasselblad". Where does that leave Kiev 88?
 
rxmd said:
Hm, just as a matter of interest - does that apply to a Zorki 3 as well?

Philipp
Click to expand...
I don't have one and I've never taken one apart to see how it works, so I've no idea, sorry. I'd err on the side of caution and assume you should cock it first.
 
dll927 said:
This subject seems to be a matter of endless debate. I've read that, at least in the case of Kievs, this is not an issue. But some insist that it is true of all FSU cameras. What are we to believe?
Click to expand...
It has indeed been discussed many times. My experience is based on taking these cameras apart for CLA and seeing how they work. Whilst I claim no special expertise, I have seen enough of their insides to figure out the problems.
dll927 said:
The fact that the shutter speed dial revolves upon release of the shutter was true of all LTM cameras, regardless of country of origin. So why were FSU cameras vulnerable, and not Leicas? And how is one to know how how a years-old and maybe well-used camera was treated? Did every Russky that bought a camera know this and observe the correct procedure? That's probably doubtful.
Click to expand...
The rotating shutter dial isn't really the issue. Let me give you an example of the possible damage. Take a Zorki 1 or FED 1 (later models, the principle applies to all, however). Cock the shutter, set it to 1/100 and fire it. Now, the dial comes to rest with 1/50 against the index mark. The set speed of 1/100 is about the 7 O'clock position. Now you look down and forget to cock the shutter. Pull the dial up and try to set 1/500. You can't, unless you force it round and that will break the limit pin. This is true for other speeds too if you're unlucky. I only own one Leica, a IIIC, and that has no limit pin to break, so you can do this without harm. The only side-effect is that you've actually just set entirely the wrong speed from what you intended.

If the camera has slow-speeds the situation is worse, as I pointed out earlier. Lever-wind models compound the problem since it's so easy just to zap it round. Doing so will most certainly tangle the mechanism up - at best.

If you only own one model and it's not susceptible, you can get away with it. Many of us, however, own several models. It's just a safer habit to cock the shutter ALWAYS, before setting the speed.
 
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