Jazz or Blues

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butch

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I'm addicted to Don Wulff's jazz show on KMOX Saturday nights. Hope the Hockey games don't knock it out. But, to the point. Blues is a form of Jazz, right? To be Blues a song has to follow a certain form like statement-restatement-fullfillment. So "Frankie and Jonnie" is not Blues, right? Or how do you tell them apart. Then there's Beale, Bourbon, and Chicago.

Teach me something.
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blues

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jazz

I would say that the 2 are different forms of music w/common roots, so jazz (@ least @ 1 point) incorporates some elements of blues & vice versa.


butch said:
I'm addicted to Don Wulff's jazz show on KMOX Saturday nights. Hope the Hockey games don't knock it out. But, to the point. Blues is a form of Jazz, right? To be Blues a song has to follow a certain form like statement-restatement-fullfillment. So "Frankie and Jonnie" is not Blues, right? Or how do you tell them apart. Then there's Beale, Bourbon, and Chicago.

Teach me something.
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Frankie and Johnny can be a blues number, Champion Jack Dupree did a blues version of this ballad, Robert.
 
Butch,
Jazz was born of the blues. It is obviously more advanced in terms of muscianship and composition than blues. Both Jazz and blues are comprised of different sub-categories. Beale and Bourbon are both Dixieland Jazz which is often perfomed with a larger band using various horns . Chicago is blues typically perfomed w/ electric insturments (as opposed to country blues performed w/ acoustic guitars). "Frankie & Johnnie" is an old blues tune (I used to have a version recorded in the 30's by Big Bill Broonzy), and has been recorded by many blues artists. I do not not know of any "Jazz" versions. I suppose there could be one out there.
 
memphis said:
blues is not jazz - I love both, but jazz has a much different tonal quality and different scales.... The difference is strong enough that you would never confuse john lee hooker for jazz nor miles davis for blues...

There is very little crossover - meaning a jazz song probably won't be played on a blues station and vice versa ---

the blues has origins in the ms delta and migrated both north and west with very different results
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do not forget it traveled east in the early 60s to London England. ;-)
 
memphis said:
blues is not jazz - I love both, but jazz has a much different tonal quality and different scales.... The difference is strong enough that you would never confuse john lee hooker for jazz nor miles davis for blues...
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THANK YOU MEMPHIS!!!

I like both too, but they're not the same, nor one is a kind of the other. Obviously, some jazzmen put some blues in their instrument, and bluesmen like BB King put some jazz in their guitar (one of jazz influences of BB King was Django Reinhardt, for instance) ... but no, jazz and blues are not the same. BTW there are so many different kind of blues or jazz ... what do you think Memphis? What do John Lee Hooker and BB King have in common? Or Robert Johnson and Muddy Waters? Of course, it's blues, but with a lot of differences. We could say the same for jazz music(s).
Best,
Marc
 
Blues and Gospel are from the people evolving from their lives and environment. I don't know that one came from the other, more that one celebrates the joy of their faith and the other the plight of their situation.

Both together have influenced what has come since. Elvis sang both the Blues and Gospel before becoming the King.
 
they both evolved from common roots in the South, most likely the Dockery plantation in Mississippi. WC Handy is generally regarded as the man who first heard 'the blues,' when he had a guitarist sing a song about "where the southern cross the dog" - ie the crossing of two railway lines.
it's possible this guitarist could have been Charley Patton, a man who entertained workers on the Dockery by playing the guitar behind his back, or over his head (sound familiar?). He was a huge influence on Robert Johnson, Howlin' Wolf, and even Pops Staples, all of whom saw him there.

WC Handy then started investigating this music, and started issuing it in song sheet form - this did a huge amount to launch jazz as we know it. But there were other tributaries flowing into this river, notably the French music that was still played in new Orleans, as well as the African music that had survived only in that city, as it was the only place outside North Mississippi where slaves were allowed to play the drums - which frightened the white man, who feared they would be used to foment rebellion.
 
Paul T. said:
they both evolved from common roots in the South
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Thanks for your informative post Paul. Obviously, you're right but the point is that Jazz and Blues are not the same, and each one is not a kind of the other one either. If they were, then ok jazz, blues, rock, gospel, R'nB, rap ... were all the same. It's not the case.
Best,
Marc
 
Marc-A. said:
Thanks for your informative post Paul. Obviously, you're right but the point is that Jazz and Blues are not the same, and each one is not a kind of the other one either. If they were, then ok jazz, blues, rock, gospel, R'nB, rap ... were all the same. It's not the case.
Best,
Marc
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No sir, you're right, but they're all gloriously interlinked. For instance, western swing music evolved from hillbilly music, but was heavily influenced by blues and jazz. Then, in turn, it was a huge influence on the emergence of soul - many of the major guitarists, like Curtis Mayfield or even Guitar Slim (who in turn influenced Ray Charles) learned lots of their tricks from Western Swing records.

A few years back I wrote a book where i interviewed 60 of the most influential blues musicians still surviving, from people who went on the road with Robert Johnson, through to BB, John Lee Hooker, Keef and others. Sometimes we'd have a jam, but I alwyas felt that an English honky playing blues with these guys was a little like a fish riding in a bicycle race. So many evenings, we'd play late into the night on old country standards like He'll Have To Go. They all knew 'em...

I always regretted not taking photos of those guys, but then they wouldn't have been half as good as the ones taken by Bill Steber: http://www.steberphoto.com/index.htm


Memphis, did you used to hang out at JR Jimbrough's or RL's jukejoints much? And is Al Green still turning up at the full Gospel Tabernacle?
 
I love the blues. memphis, have you heard the cd "10 days out"? There are some awesome old blues musicians playing their songs again, and the video DVD it comes with is also great.
 
Thanks Memphis and Paul for your posts. I share your point of view, but I don't have the same knowledge as you (the only thing I can really talk about is gypsy jazz ... another story though).
Great memories Paul ... you're lucky.
Best,
Marc
PS: I like having discussion like that on RFF ... there's no other place!
PS2: Memphis, I told you, I really would like to come and visit Memphis, its bars, its blues clubs ... and share a bottle of JD ... of course I'm taking my RF ;-)
 
PBS has had several great films/episodes on blues and jazz. Both are southern, jazz in New Orleans and the delta recognized as the home of the blues. Martin Scorsesee, excuse the misspelling, had a great film on the blues also. And yes, Kenny Wayne Shepard's 10 Day Out is a great intro into the blues. He did us all a great favor when he recorded some of those great blues players.
 
Blake, the invitation is nice. I'd love to get over there for a week-end of shooting. The music would be the cherry. Health issues keep me close to home, for now. I think Helena and Marrianna, Arkansas are rich in Blues history, also. I don't remember where I read that Blues had a certain formulation for the lyrics of the piece. I think I can recognize the two, mainly because Jazz has a more "refined" theme. Or maybe it's more "refined" in the treatment of the same themes. I think of Bob Crosby and the Bobcats, Doris Day, or Billie Holiday when I think of Jazz. Maybe I'm getting confused with "big band".

If you like good music I highly recommend Saturday nights KMOX, St. Louis, 1120 AM. 8:00 PM to 1:00 AM (usually). Don Wolff's theme is Armstrong's "I Like Jazz" .
 
I think that Jazz was born from the blues, but in the last 70-80 years they evolved separately, so they have very different sounds while sharing the same roots.

Im more of a jazz man myself but I love the blues too!
 
I think jazz is almost whatever you say it is. New Oleans jazz takes many forms also. I am surprised not seeing Bunk Johnson mentioned, or did I just miss it? Frankly I am not that big a fan of his, or that style of muisic, but it can't be left out.

Butch - I don't know Bob Crosby, but agree with Billie Holiday. I would put Doris Day, I don't know, pop music mayby. If she did jazz or even big band, I missed it. I have never thought there were that many who could successfully sing jazz. Frank Sinatra is one who never really wanted or got credit for it, but he could. Hiroshima could too. Sinatra's timing is very jazz like even in non-jazz songs. For those in the listening area, there used to be a saturday night rendention of the Bunk Johnson style of jazz on WMZQ, a public radio station sponsored by American University in Washington, DC. I don't know if that is still on or not. EDIT: Rob Bamberger (sp) was the host's name. Another who I thought sang jazz well was Sergio Mendez's Brazil 66. Now maybe everyone won't agree they even sang jazz.

Myself, I liked jazz at least since Take Five hit and "crossed over" my first year of college. I don't think I disliked anything Dave Brubeck ever did, including Brandenburg Gate, which I didn't like at first, but grew to respect enormously. However, not everybody likes "progressive" jazz.
 
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I strongly prefer blues.

In my opinion, modern piano jazz has amost uniformly become a lifeless technical exercise. This is from the perspective of a piano player who adores Scriabin, bear that in mind 🙄 I am not easily impressed by runs up and down the keyboard or occasional harmonic detours.

Now with blues, emotional content is everything. The structure of the piece might be trivial from an analytical standpoint, but the song still speaks to your soul. Blues does not make particularly good background music, whereas piano jazz has become our national background music, mostly because it has become excessively self-indulgent on the technical side. Go to an authentic blues club and you'll feel that the performers are pouring their souls right into your glass of bourbon, and they need you to be there to sip it with them. Unfortunately, I never had that feeling in a jazz club- maybe I have simply missed the authentic jazz hotspots.

When I was in Chicago some years ago, wandering up and down Halsted all night, listening to blues in small clubs, I asked an oldtimer whether there was such a thing as a Chicago blues picture book. He said there was not, "cause mos' white folk ain't coming round these parts no more." Foremost I was struck by the way he so naturally equated photography with white folk! But other than that, I thought it a real shame that the very authentic music scene there wasn't attracting photographers. Anyway, I have had that project in mind for many years but haven't had a chance to start it.
 
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