kshapero
South Florida Man
Eh Oh I think we need to chill. I don't think Jews want to exterminate anyone. As I Jew I would dearly like to make Peace with Arabs, but practically speaking how do you do that when they are sworn in writing to your destruction? Just a practical question. That to me is a good reason to pray.
Last edited:
Al Kaplan
Veteran
One of my good friends, a wedding and portrait photographer, is an Arab and a practicing devout Muslim. We have no problem getting along and sometimes he'll talk me into going along and helping hm shoot a large affair. (I hate doing wedding photograhy!) A lot of these weddings are Jewish weddings.
As I see it, the major problem in Israel today is a result of the aftermath of World War II. Palestine at that point was a British "protectorate", one of the remnants of the British Empire. After the Nazis were defeated there were still a few million Jews in Europe that hadn't been exterminated yet. Somebody came up with the bright idea of "let's send them back to where they came from!"
Before that Palestine had a mixture of Jews, Christians, and Muslims living together in a reasonably peaceful society. Suddenly there was this huge influx of European Jews, dirt poor after the Nazi attempt to eradicate them, but the Jewish community in the U.S. and elsewhere donated money to Israel. With the help of the U.S. and European countries it was decided that a Jewish state should be established in Palestine. For Europe that would be "The Final Solution To The Jewish Problem" and you didn't have to kill them.
Forget the fact that Arabs owned houses, farms, and businesses. Forget the fact that they could trace their roots back just as far as the Jews. Trace it back to a pair of brothers according to the bible. But it was going to be a Jewish country! Israel got its independence from Great Britain and embarked on a campaign to send the Arabs "back where they came from". Sound familiar?
Even their languages today are so similar that they sound like mispronounciations of one another. The common greeting of "peace be with you" is salaam alekem in Arabic and shalom alechem in Hebrew.
Now let's get back on topic and discuss photography. The last big shoot that my Arab friend and I shot together was the Diwali festival at the Hindu temple. If you don't know what Diwali is? http://www3.kumc.edu/diversity/ethnic_relig/diwali.html We had a great time and ate way too much spicey food. We got some great photos too. The Hindus were happy.
As I see it, the major problem in Israel today is a result of the aftermath of World War II. Palestine at that point was a British "protectorate", one of the remnants of the British Empire. After the Nazis were defeated there were still a few million Jews in Europe that hadn't been exterminated yet. Somebody came up with the bright idea of "let's send them back to where they came from!"
Before that Palestine had a mixture of Jews, Christians, and Muslims living together in a reasonably peaceful society. Suddenly there was this huge influx of European Jews, dirt poor after the Nazi attempt to eradicate them, but the Jewish community in the U.S. and elsewhere donated money to Israel. With the help of the U.S. and European countries it was decided that a Jewish state should be established in Palestine. For Europe that would be "The Final Solution To The Jewish Problem" and you didn't have to kill them.
Forget the fact that Arabs owned houses, farms, and businesses. Forget the fact that they could trace their roots back just as far as the Jews. Trace it back to a pair of brothers according to the bible. But it was going to be a Jewish country! Israel got its independence from Great Britain and embarked on a campaign to send the Arabs "back where they came from". Sound familiar?
Even their languages today are so similar that they sound like mispronounciations of one another. The common greeting of "peace be with you" is salaam alekem in Arabic and shalom alechem in Hebrew.
Now let's get back on topic and discuss photography. The last big shoot that my Arab friend and I shot together was the Diwali festival at the Hindu temple. If you don't know what Diwali is? http://www3.kumc.edu/diversity/ethnic_relig/diwali.html We had a great time and ate way too much spicey food. We got some great photos too. The Hindus were happy.
Last edited:
kshapero
South Florida Man
Al, Your rendition of history is not accurate, IMHO. but lets shoot photos anyway.
The tower of babel, circa 2008
The tower of babel, circa 2008
Gumby
Veteran
Gumby
Veteran
I heard the story, too, in the same manner as Al told it. I heard it from a displaced Palestinian Christian who has been "exiled" to the US after his family had their land and home taken away from them. He has shown me pictures... no doubt taken with rangefinder camera.
Ducky
Well-known
This is almost as interesting as film V digital.
The Jews, Palestinians and Arabs have been slaughtering each other in that region long before the post-WWII era.
Roosevelt made a deal for oil with the Saudis and the one point they could not agree on was the Jewish State.
Roosevelt made a deal for oil with the Saudis and the one point they could not agree on was the Jewish State.
Gumby
Veteran
R
ruben
Guest
Dear Petrol,
Do you have any evidence of this absurd assertion ? Because here you are accusing 1.5 billion people of being potential genocide perpetrators. Where have you taken this asumption from ?
You have presesnted 1.5 billion people as if there were all believers, as if there were no branch and sub-branch differences within their beliefs, as if they were all militants, as if the genocidal instinct is stronger than any thing else in each one of them, as if they all go to the same mosque every friday, or all mosques around the globle sing the same like a consumer TV jingle of coca cola.
And not only you are accusing 1.5 billion people of monster instincts but you have fallen in the trap of make the selection accoriding to religion and ethnographyc basis.
Aren't you repeating the racial theory in a reversed style ?
Dear Petrol, the worst is that you portray 1.5 billion people that most of them live under different levels of oppresion and dictatorship, according to their country - as a block of idiots easy to agitate for murder.
I would say that you like to exagerate things ....
Cheers,
Ruben
R
ruben
Guest
I am comming back to this thread specially on behalf of our US members to try to face in a different way (I hope) what seems to me a source of great and legitimate fear among you: Bin Laden & Co.
I will like to lay before you some facts and viewpoints that may let you reduce this satan to his real proportions.
Mr Bin Laden as a true bloody terrorist has dealt a tremendous loss of human life to you. Was I an American I think I would have a lot of nightmares as a result. But here is the whole trick of Terror: to inspire fear, or terror, in the hearts of people.
The first precondition to fight it is underlyied here above. We should deal with this fear in the same way we deal with all other fears in our life, by the wilingness to look at the monster straight in its eyes, by rationalizing the real implications, and by developing a policy of confrontation. This policy is not of my concern here.
Now, in order to inflict such a terrible blow on you, Mr Bin Laden enjoyed the tremendous advantage of surprise. This advantage has been lost for ever. Kindly let me detail this point, because there is more here than what you may think.
Is it theorectically possible that Bin Laden and Co will cheat the several US bodies of intelligence and patrolling. It is possible. Is it possible he will be able to find a way to inflict a second massive bloodshed in the US ? I doubt it very much. Why ? Because some two hundred and fifty million Americans have been vacinated by the traumatic events of 9/11, and a new highly alert element is already inside their minds. This hidden element will awake at the hour of need.
Now, lets try to view the wide picture of this fundamentalist phenomena, which despite my above discussion with Petrol, I do consider as a mighty force. Not of the nightmare proportions he sees it, but a very important factor in world politics.
What new socio-economical plataform Bin Laden & Co have in store for the day they size power ? Zero. What zero means ? it means they will be able to feed people within the present capitalist system which is dependent on the very existance of the US market.
Additionally they bring a set of utterly backwards measures of oppresion against women.
Now, in case some of you imagine that all, most, half or even a quarter of the muslim countries look like the tribal Afghanistan, this is not my perception. Modernization has entered all Asian countries at different levels, while a country like Afghanistan today is the poorest extreme.
Then why the hate for the US and support for the different branches of religious fundamentalism ? First let me say that this support is not all embracing despite the CNN, Fox and all other foxes that are in panic themselves and transmit this panic to you.
But these big masses of Asia Africa and much of the Middle East are materially and literally hungry. They need food, medications, education. Much of their problems start with their local corrupted Governments, and their local corrupted opposition forces to those Governments, both blaming directly or undirectly the US. This is a problem.
But what should concern us is that the US have the economical and political power to lead a world change. Below Florida you have one of the poorest countries of the world, Cuba, which I don't think can serve you as a political or economic example. But despite this, your fellow Cubans have sent hundred of thousand of people to build schools in allyied countries like VietNam, Nicaragua, several African countries, and even soldiers to Angola.
No one is asking you to sell your home, or car and start living in a hut on behalf of foreign help. But a lot can be done without it. Perhaps you could be able to increase employment and your GNP by designing a world solidarity program of help that will truly rescue the desperate peoples of the East.
This is a great dream, no doubt. But the biggest part of its materialization depends upon the willingness to re-design your domestic economy in intercourse with foreign help, for the benefit of both sides. You are not requested to suffer, but start a new thinking.
The world needs your help. It is time you really help and gain real friends.
Cheers,
Ruben
I will like to lay before you some facts and viewpoints that may let you reduce this satan to his real proportions.
Mr Bin Laden as a true bloody terrorist has dealt a tremendous loss of human life to you. Was I an American I think I would have a lot of nightmares as a result. But here is the whole trick of Terror: to inspire fear, or terror, in the hearts of people.
The first precondition to fight it is underlyied here above. We should deal with this fear in the same way we deal with all other fears in our life, by the wilingness to look at the monster straight in its eyes, by rationalizing the real implications, and by developing a policy of confrontation. This policy is not of my concern here.
Now, in order to inflict such a terrible blow on you, Mr Bin Laden enjoyed the tremendous advantage of surprise. This advantage has been lost for ever. Kindly let me detail this point, because there is more here than what you may think.
Is it theorectically possible that Bin Laden and Co will cheat the several US bodies of intelligence and patrolling. It is possible. Is it possible he will be able to find a way to inflict a second massive bloodshed in the US ? I doubt it very much. Why ? Because some two hundred and fifty million Americans have been vacinated by the traumatic events of 9/11, and a new highly alert element is already inside their minds. This hidden element will awake at the hour of need.
Now, lets try to view the wide picture of this fundamentalist phenomena, which despite my above discussion with Petrol, I do consider as a mighty force. Not of the nightmare proportions he sees it, but a very important factor in world politics.
What new socio-economical plataform Bin Laden & Co have in store for the day they size power ? Zero. What zero means ? it means they will be able to feed people within the present capitalist system which is dependent on the very existance of the US market.
Additionally they bring a set of utterly backwards measures of oppresion against women.
Now, in case some of you imagine that all, most, half or even a quarter of the muslim countries look like the tribal Afghanistan, this is not my perception. Modernization has entered all Asian countries at different levels, while a country like Afghanistan today is the poorest extreme.
Then why the hate for the US and support for the different branches of religious fundamentalism ? First let me say that this support is not all embracing despite the CNN, Fox and all other foxes that are in panic themselves and transmit this panic to you.
But these big masses of Asia Africa and much of the Middle East are materially and literally hungry. They need food, medications, education. Much of their problems start with their local corrupted Governments, and their local corrupted opposition forces to those Governments, both blaming directly or undirectly the US. This is a problem.
But what should concern us is that the US have the economical and political power to lead a world change. Below Florida you have one of the poorest countries of the world, Cuba, which I don't think can serve you as a political or economic example. But despite this, your fellow Cubans have sent hundred of thousand of people to build schools in allyied countries like VietNam, Nicaragua, several African countries, and even soldiers to Angola.
No one is asking you to sell your home, or car and start living in a hut on behalf of foreign help. But a lot can be done without it. Perhaps you could be able to increase employment and your GNP by designing a world solidarity program of help that will truly rescue the desperate peoples of the East.
This is a great dream, no doubt. But the biggest part of its materialization depends upon the willingness to re-design your domestic economy in intercourse with foreign help, for the benefit of both sides. You are not requested to suffer, but start a new thinking.
The world needs your help. It is time you really help and gain real friends.
Cheers,
Ruben
Last edited by a moderator:
Olsen
Well-known
Ruben,
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. You are always interesting to read.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. You are always interesting to read.
gb hill
Veteran
Maybe this will wake some of you people up.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSemkPChvHo&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSemkPChvHo&feature=related
R
ruben
Guest
gb, I don't follow you at all.
In case you have understood my post #34 as a clue to vote for Obama, I have several things to say.
I am extremely sorry that two great personalities as Obama and Mc Cain are confronting each other. In the past US elections I happened to review a bit Mc Cain biography and I got a truly good impression of this man. I trust him. A man who has personally suffered during a war, knows what a war is and will not act but in a responsible way.
Obama on the other hand is a dream, a promise, that can turn true or become a fake face for the old politics like Ms Condoliza Rice.
Ms Rice is fully entitled to think and act beyond her skin and sex, on behalf of the US as a whole, in the same way I think beyond my status as Israeli citizen. But had I been a member of the Israeli Government during the bombing of the Jewish association in Buenos Aires (AMIA) that left some 250 deaths, and my Government would do nothing about, I ceirtainly would resign from that Government, due to being a human being and a Jew. Ceirtanly I wouldn't ignore the Catherina vyctims and go to buy shoes.
You see, skin color, religion, promises, are just stickers.
Hopefully in case Obama wins, he will truly reeconciliate the US with the rest of the world. Both the US and the world need it.
But then comes your post #37 and I am totally lost what are you talking about, beyond an Israel or pro-Israel mystic/religious message.
Nevertheless, gb, I refuse to accept that you are indifferent to those African kids under famine.
From my angle, you can be a Republican and or Israeli supporter and still be a partner to dialogue, along the abovementioned lines about stickers.
But you have to stop hiding your sensibility towards those who live in disgraced conditions. Let's start thinking about how the whole of humanity can move forwards. And when I say the whole of Humanity, I am not excluding at all the USA.
Cheers,
Ruben
In case you have understood my post #34 as a clue to vote for Obama, I have several things to say.
I am extremely sorry that two great personalities as Obama and Mc Cain are confronting each other. In the past US elections I happened to review a bit Mc Cain biography and I got a truly good impression of this man. I trust him. A man who has personally suffered during a war, knows what a war is and will not act but in a responsible way.
Obama on the other hand is a dream, a promise, that can turn true or become a fake face for the old politics like Ms Condoliza Rice.
Ms Rice is fully entitled to think and act beyond her skin and sex, on behalf of the US as a whole, in the same way I think beyond my status as Israeli citizen. But had I been a member of the Israeli Government during the bombing of the Jewish association in Buenos Aires (AMIA) that left some 250 deaths, and my Government would do nothing about, I ceirtainly would resign from that Government, due to being a human being and a Jew. Ceirtanly I wouldn't ignore the Catherina vyctims and go to buy shoes.
You see, skin color, religion, promises, are just stickers.
Hopefully in case Obama wins, he will truly reeconciliate the US with the rest of the world. Both the US and the world need it.
But then comes your post #37 and I am totally lost what are you talking about, beyond an Israel or pro-Israel mystic/religious message.
Nevertheless, gb, I refuse to accept that you are indifferent to those African kids under famine.
From my angle, you can be a Republican and or Israeli supporter and still be a partner to dialogue, along the abovementioned lines about stickers.
But you have to stop hiding your sensibility towards those who live in disgraced conditions. Let's start thinking about how the whole of humanity can move forwards. And when I say the whole of Humanity, I am not excluding at all the USA.
Cheers,
Ruben
Last edited by a moderator:
gb hill
Veteran
Ruben, Now you have lost me. Where did you get African kids & famine from. All I'm trying to show from the video is what the Muslim leaders think about Obama. How they are upset at his support of Jerusalem as becoming a Capitol city. There are & I a'm sad to say, are certain terrorist that wish to kill all Jews. Have you not heard statements from a certain Iranian president? I didn't expect you to fully understand post 37. But this is a quick detail of the Old Testament Scriptures detailing God's promise of the land you live in & what has happened througout history & what God's plan is for Israel is in the future. That's all. & I'm not a Republican. I am an independent, yet conservative.
Olsen
Well-known
I am absolutely convinced that most - all, muslim leaders want peace and prosperity for their fellow citizens. Which candidate can provide this?
Putting "God" into this is what started this whole mess.