Jobo tanks, Constant Agitation (Uniroller) and Fluid Quantities

[roscoetuff]

Fairly simple question I think I know the answer to, but would like confirmation before processing:

With Jobo tanks, the fluid quantity minimums are for the number of FILMS, not the number of reels, right? This is my default since chemistry minimums tend to be driven by square inches of film in the tank. I've a tank that will hold 3 reels of 120, and though each reel can do 2 films (to make 6 films), I'm not ready for that an running 3 films on 3 reels - because it is EASIER. After I've done this a few times, I might decide to try 2 films per reel, but not at the start.

Beyond that, the minimum levels are suggested to be minimums. I wonder when this number is 550ML how many are actually using quantities north of that? Say 600ML or 750ML? Just curious.

THanks!

 

[Nokton48]

I wonder when this number is 550ML how many are actually using quantities north of that? Say 600ML or 750ML?

I always use more chemistry than than JOBO suggests. It won't hurt anything and I don't want any issues with streaks or marks from issues.

 

[taemo]

correct, it is per FILM and not REELS
On my Jobo 2553, it states that for 5 135/36 it would need 640ml and if I were to double it up to 10, it would need 1250ml.

likewise for 120, 3x is 640ml and 6x is 1250ml.
oddly enough, 220 requires the same amount as 135/120

I've been processing the same number of 135/120 film with the same containers that I just eyeball the amount.
9.5ml of HC-110 and ~270ml of water, and just double it if I'm processing more 😀

 

[roscoetuff]

Nok: Are you using 1:1? Looking through everything I can find on Jobo (which their site gives XTOL discussion), they did not test higher dilutions. I've been using Perceptol at 1:2, but can go to STOCK or 1:1. Just trying to get'er figured. NOTE: Reviewing some of your other notes, it looks like you're using 1:3 and long times. You mentioned 25 minutes at one place, but I'm not sure you mentioned the film or the temp - which would help in terms of converting your times/film/develop to mine. 🙂

Jobo's tests were based on Kodak's 200ML per film and the report was that DMAX came out fine.

Kind of surprised this stuff ain't better documented!!! The Multitank 5 gives confusing numbers on the side 'cause I'm only loading 1 film per reel, and then 2 to 3 reels per tank run. I read 730ML on the side of the tank, but I'd round up to 750ML. Written doc suggests as much as 850ML at which point it's really faster to do 1000ML.

 

[Nokton48]

I use 1000 ml with three 120 reels in a Multtank 5.

I like beefy negatives (I want shadow detail) and I am going to wet print my negs eventually. I use stock solution, I don't dilute. But I do replenish, as I have mentioned.

Microdol-X times are very long, and the film does not seem to be harmed by the longer development. **25 minutes in stock Mic-X at 68F NO DILUTION is my standard development which I will continue to use** Since fifteen minutes is not out of line for most films in stock Mic-X, I prefer the negs I get by extending the development to 25 minutes. Amazingly the negs do not block up probably due to the low contrast development.

 

[taemo]

Funny enough I never noticed that detail on the MultiTank 5.
on the drum there's the amount required for 2502 and 2501 reel.
Most reels available now a days are the 2502 (all black with red clip) and I've been developing my 135 and 120 following the 2501 chart.
Never had any issues developing B&W, C-41 or E-6.

I also have 2 MultiTank 2 that I use when I'm processing only 1-2 rolls of 135 or 120 (the 2nd one gets used as counter weight on the uniroller)

 

[roscoetuff]

So there's a thread I printed out on Photrio (was apug) on XTOL replenished. Have to think this one through as it sounds like promising way to go. Basically, you develop with STOCK rather than a dilution, and replace 100ML out of 1000ML with new. Without doing any figuring, my guess is that you'd end up stretching your developer more than any of the dilutions. What is reported is that this is a common lab technique with deep tanks, and that the results end up waaaaaaaaaaaay better than otherwise. Interesting. In the early runs where the developer might end up 70% or more as "new" rather than "replenished", the idea is to reduce the time of development by about 10%. Then once the seasoned composition is more complete, to go back to usual time. I tend to suppose that this is what Nokton is doing with Mic-X? Sound about right?

 

[Nokton48]

Yes basically that is what I am doing. You use the solution over and over, adding 30 ml of replenisher, per 36 exp roll (or 120 roll). I don't add or cut time when first using the stock solution.

If you want I will give you the receipe to make the replenisher. You use a one gallon packet of Legacy Mic-X, and add sodium carbonate, which I get from Photographer's Formulary.

 

[roscoetuff]

Nokton: Interesting comments toward the end of the posts (I didn't finish reading them until late last night and here's the link: https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/replenishing-xtol-developer.17903/) suggested the following: "You shouldn't use rotary processing with any replenished developer because there is far more aerial oxidation taking place due to low volumes and high surface areas." This was repeated by a number of different folks. And yet your results are fine.

Lots to glean from this material, and some of which is contested between various members. Worth a look might be Kodak's Data Sheet J-104. Seems to be a linear relationship between the rate of replenshment and time added to maintain ISO speed (or the cut in ISO shot). Biggest issue is whether without testing from time to time, you can expect good results, or whether or not one-shot with 1:1 or 1:2 might better mimic the intended improvement with higher consistency - given small tank volumes. I'll have more reading to do. Think Hornstein's book has something on this I skipped over and should revisit.

Love to hear more of you work it, time / ISO adjustment, etc. Thought I read somewhere hereabouts that Mic-X is your 2nd choice developer and the 1st is something else (Pyro-something or ID-11?). I'd assume you replenish there, too.

 

[zauhar]

The multi-tanks have solution volumes of something like 540 and 640 ml depending on how many reels you have loaded, those are bare minimums to keep the film covered during horizontal processing. I just use 640 ml no matter the number of reels in use.

The 'doubled' volume (> 1000 ml) is only if you are loading two rolls on a single reel, something I have never attempted (it can be hard enough getting one stiff roll of film onto the plastic reel).

Or is this about a tank not used in a processor?

 

[roscoetuff]

zauhar: The replenishment seems to be mostly about deep (commercial size) developing tanks where the film hangs, and rotating tanks like a Jobo aren't encouraged for this. Yet Nokton has had good results.

As to the prior posts, absolutely about rotation tanks and Jobos. I haven't tried to load 2 films to a reel, and don't plan to go there any time soon. I struggle as it is (at this early stage as "new to jobo") with the reels for just one film per reel. Sticking with that.

Yet the discussion of replenishment can be helpful. Re-reading Hornstein's book on this, noted that he says that's it is better to replenish with smaller amounts rather than larger. As I targetted 750ML for my Multitank 5 as a standard for 3 reels - rounding up, I'm still mulling the relationship between one and the other.

 

[Nokton48]

I now only do two rolls of 120 per reel. So eight rolls of 120 (plus a 35mm) in my Multitank 6.

The replenishment seems to be mostly about deep (commercial size) developing tanks where the film hangs, and rotating tanks like a Jobo aren't encouraged for this. Yet Nokton has had good results.

Yes I have Kodak 3 1/2 gallon tanks in storage and eventually I will build them into my darkroom when I rough it in. But I will still use the JOBOS and my trusty Uniroller! Xtol replenishment is NOT like replenishing "classic" developers, like Microdol-X, DK-50, or Acufine. These developers have specific replenishers available for them, the replenisher formulation is NOT the same as the stock solutions. Kodak discontinued Mic-X Replenisher a long time ago, but you can still find it on Ebay if you want it. With XTOL you are replenishing with stock solution, that is really not the same thing in my opinion. I bought a bottle of XTOL five years ago, I still haven't tried it. It's more of a modern formulation, I prefer the classic stuffs.

As far as I am concerned, Legacy Mic-X is close enough to the original, that I simply used Kodak's info on how to convert Kodak Microdol-X, into Microdol-X Replenisher. Note: The modified Mic-X Replenisher is more concentrated than regular Legacy Mic-X, and has the addition of Sodium Carbonate.

This is not rocket science. It is easy to do! 🙂

SEE HERE:

http://www.blende7.at/datenblaetter/kodak pdf/microdol.pdf

In this you will find instructions on how to convert Kodak Microdol-X, into Kodak Microdol-X Replenisher. All I did was to substitute Freestyle Legacy Mic-X, for the Kodak Microdol-X. And it works beautifully for me.

 

[Nokton48]

This is for my Basket Line, when I get it going:

Eighteen rolls of 120 at one time. 🙂

Basket Line by Nokton48, on Flickr

And of course large format:

DSC05784 by Nokton48, on Flickr

Fifty-two sheets of 4x5" film in one film run.

 

[roscoetuff]

Nok:

Thanks for the link to the Kodak datasheet. Helpful.
And I've got to add for the "Go Big or Stay Home Department", that you are really, really really going big and NOT staying home with your development. Pretty sweet looking gear. Looks like a lot of fun for a very long time... or in view of the scale of your (intended) ops, lots MORE fun in the same amount of time.