Jollylook instant, another failed Kickstarter

[zuiko85]

Oh, so Kickstarter is now a bad guy. Really?

Come on. Kickstarter runs the servers and such to enable the promotion and all that. That costs money, and is why they get their 5% regardless.

I've never looked on Kickstarter as being anything more than a communications enabler. I take it on me to evaluate whether a proposal is worth my putting in a dime, and don't seek for some higher authority to approve or disapprove of a project. 🙂

G

I do not question what Kickstarter is. I do question their "Terms of use" statement and their use of the term "Accountability on Kickstarter". The use of these terms gives the impression that somehow project creators are held 'accountable' for failure to meet the 'terms of use'. Reading section 6 of KS's TOS dispels such a notion but, then, why have a 'report this project to Kickstarter' on the campaign page.
I also do not question their 5% commission (plus bank card fees), which I believe is a reasonable payment for the services they provide.
I do believe however that they (Kickstarter) really need to be very brutal and brief when it comes to stating exactly who they are and what they do.

I rather think a better way may be for hardware/software project creators to just not offer rewards at all. To instead let backers who would like to see such a project through to completion decide how much they wish to risk. It would work like this;
1. Potential backers would be invited to 'invest', in $10 increments. So one backer may put in $10, another would be more confident and back the project for $30 while another would do $50. These backer amounts would entitle backers to a face value discount on the final product, if and when it is ever available.
2. It would be clearly stated that if the project fails, all backer proceeds would be lost, and no refunds will be made. Ever.
3. No estimate of delivery of product earlier than one year after funding period was completed would be allowed. For example, lets say funding for a project ended on June 30th. Then the earliest a project creator could estimate delivery would be July of the following year. In this manner, pie in the sky estimates could be avoided. And if, perchance the product is completed earlier than that....hooray.

I have no idea whether this idea would fly....but there would sure be a lot less misunderstandings between creators and backers in crowdfunded projects.

IOW, lower your expectations and you will be disappointed less.

 

[Godfrey]

... lower your expectations and you will be disappointed less.

To be sure, I've never read the Kickstarter "terms of service" ... and never would unless I were going to start a KS project! ... as I feel they are completely irrelevant. I use KS purely because it's a site where I can find some interesting projects to become involved in. There are several others (indiegogo.com for example) that are also useful in the same way.

Your statement at top is the only absolute truth when getting involved in this stuff... And is so true for a lot of other things as well. 🙂

G

 

[zuiko85]

Indeed. And now for something completely different.
How is it going with your modern instant magny. I see that B&H has the two pack of instax square for $18 now, so the price is softening a bit.
When/if they can sell for the same as the Instax Wide I’d be interested in that format because lenses made to cover 6X6 would probably be ok to cover Instax Square also.

 

[Godfrey]

Indeed. And now for something completely different.
How is it going with your modern instant magny. I see that B&H has the two pack of instax square for $18 now, so the price is softening a bit.
When/if they can sell for the same as the Instax Wide I’d be interested in that format because lenses made to cover 6X6 would probably be ok to cover Instax Square also.

The Instant Magny 35 is quite a nice piece. It would be more flexible if used with a metered SLR body ... a Nikon FM, for instance... vs a meterless Leica M4-2 just from the point of view of camera dynamics/ergonomics, but it works well with the Leica anyway. The ergonomics are the biggest issues because it is a largish thing hanging off the camera, but I have found I adapt pretty quickly. It also tends to work better with SLR wide lenses vs RF wide lenses because of the way the latter tend to be symmetrical designs that project deeply into the camera body and have wide angle of incidence off the center line of the frame. Even the WATE is mostly hopeless with it whereas the Super-Elmar-R 15mm produces beautiful results.

I haven't been shooting with it much lately because I've been concentrating on other things for a little bit, but I'll get back there soon. 🙂

Regard Instax SQ vs 6x6 ... The Instax SQ format is 62x62mm and Hasselblad's 6x6 format is 56x56mm. Hasselblad lenses would have no problem covering the entire 62x62 format but the back mounting gate on a Hassy body prevents that. The film processing unit for the Instant Magny 35 is an ideal base for a Hasselblad Instax SQ back ... it's compact, can be oriented correctly, etc.

I contacted the KS folks for the Instant Magny 35: they have no interest in producing a version for the Hasselblad V system. But I acquired another film processing unit from them, they were good for that. And I have a Hasselblad Polaroid back that I can use to scavenge the back mounting plate from. I haven't had time yet to go further, but once I have a little free time I'll measure up the film plane depth and see how much material I need to remove from the IM35 processing unit to achieve infinity focus. As long as I can get within about a mm, I can accommodate the difference with a second index mark on the lens's focusing scale to cover most situations other than critical focus at infinity (which is very very rare in my photography).

Fun stuff. 😀

G

--- BTW, I' bought my most recent supply of Instax SQ and Instax Wide film from Amazon.com. $18.50 per two pack for both ... that's not bad for 20 exposures of instant film, under a dollar a frame. Even in Polaroid's heyday, the best price I was ever able to get on instant film for the SX-70 was around $0.80 per frame, and that was 25-30 years ago.

 

[zuiko85]

On the jollylook KS community page it shows over 2200 backers from the US. I wonder if any US backer and RF Forum member has received one of the newer Ukrainian made cameras. And, if it worked. Quite curious to know.
Thanks,

 

[AJShepherd]

What a waste of money. First time I put into a kickstarter, and it's going to be the last.

After two years I'd pretty much given up on even receiving anything, but when it showed up a few weeks ago I bought a pack of Instax Mini and took it out to try.

Ever single shot way out of focus.

Turns out the film pack holder and transport mechanism is only held in place by the crank, and could move several millimetres either way.

May still put a pinhole in the front, seal the front up, and have it as a small box instax pinhole camera, but I'm not sure I can be bothered and might just toss it in the cardboard recycling.

 

[Ste_S]

I'm not sure why Kickstarter isn't scammed harder than it already is. People give you money without you having to deliver anything and the platform itself won't perceive
As long as you're reasonably social media savy some people will actually be happy to give you money on the basis they won't receive anything.

 

[Out to Lunch]

Lab-Box seems to doing very well in Asia. The last time I checked, it was sold-out and on back-order.

 

[taemo]

It looks like they're selling cameras - they are available from several online retail outlets.



I've been very careful about backing kickstarters because most seem to be run by people who don't know how to account for all the costs their project involves. The only one that hasn't delivered to me yet is Ferrania...

Likewise for me, fortunately of the 3 KS that I've backed 2 were successfully completed other than the eternal Ferrania.
I dont even remember the last time we got an update from them.

 

[Mackinaw]

Likewise for me, fortunately of the 3 KS that I've backed 2 were successfully completed other than the eternal Ferrania.
I dont even remember the last time we got an update from them.

Go over to Photrio (old APUG). On the Ferrania thread, Dave Bias, of Ferrania, is an active contributor and gives frequent updates as to what is happening.

Jim B.

 

[zuiko85]

What a waste of money. First time I put into a kickstarter, and it's going to be the last.

After two years I'd pretty much given up on even receiving anything, but when it showed up a few weeks ago I bought a pack of Instax Mini and took it out to try.

Ever single shot way out of focus.

Turns out the film pack holder and transport mechanism is only held in place by the crank, and could move several millimetres either way.

May still put a pinhole in the front, seal the front up, and have it as a small box instax pinhole camera, but I'm not sure I can be bothered and might just toss it in the cardboard recycling.

I received mine and didn’t bother to waste any film in it. I extracted the developer module and lens and aperture wheel.
The developer module now sits in a plywood box with a hard stop, it’s register is fixed. I’ve mounted a 75mm f6.3 Novar in a Vario shutter from a Zeiss Nettar. Haven’t finished quite yet but will conduct tests in the next few days to determine where to position the lens for infinity focus. The lens has front element focusing by scale to 4.5 feet.
I’ll let folks know how it turned out.

The only reason I backed this KS campaign was to use the developing module in a home built camera.

Thinking back I should have just looked for a second hand Instax 9 and adapted a lens in shutter to that.

 

[zuiko85]

Kickstarter apparently does not care how much these failed campaigns affects their business model. Many potential backers burned by this sort of venture (myself included) will never return.
But, there does seem to be an endless pool of new ones to buy into the hype of crowdfunding.
Kickstarter could certainly be more honest on their site. They list “Terms of service”, and what the project creators are “required” to do. They also have a provision to “Report this project to Kickstarter”. All of this gives the false impression that they provide some sort of oversight to campaigns. They do not. In truth, in practical terms there are no consequences for creators who violate the terms of service and, as far as being ‘required’ to fulfill the promised rewards, there are limited legal remedies for backers.
Even if a backer or group of backers could obtain a monetary judgement against a creator in a small claims court, the backers would be responsible to collect that judgement from the project creator who may simply refuse to pay the judgement or perhaps be unable to pay.

So, what to do. Well, I believe Kickstarter should strike all language from their site regarding the ‘terms of service’ and creator ‘requirements’. Instead, be totally above board and inform potential backers of the real world risks of crowdfunding. That you must be prepared to lose your money either to non delivery of reward or the reward that is shipped will not live up to the promotion given it by the project creator.

Of course, this would never happen. At present, Kickstarter’s business model pulls in a steady and reliable income with little to no risk to them.

Oh well, they are not the only company out there to game the system to increase profits.

 

[c.poulton]

I've tried. Most Kickstarter projects I've backed worked out just fine in the end. (My Lab-Box finally arrived a couple of weeks ago - well worth the wait and good communication throughout from the creators so no complaints - I just need to start using it!)

The one project that has fallen flat is NuBox, with over $22,000 pledged on the project the creator Robert Hamm appears to have just done a runner with no updates or other communication since April this year. Robert appears to be doing OK though with his wedding photography and YouTube videos.

The trouble with Kickstarter is that they have absolved themselves of any responsibility in regard to fraudulent projects. Failures I can kind-of live with if only the creators were honest with their backers, but this particular project leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

 

[zuiko85]

I've tried. Most Kickstarter projects I've backed worked out just fine in the end. (My Lab-Box finally arrived a couple of weeks ago - well worth the wait and good communication throughout from the creators so no complaints - I just need to start using it!)

The one project that has fallen flat is NuBox, with over $22,000 pledged on the project the creator Robert Hamm appears to have just done a runner with no updates or other communication since April this year. Robert appears to be doing OK though with his wedding photography and YouTube videos.

The trouble with Kickstarter is that they have absolved themselves of any responsibility in regard to fraudulent projects. Failures I can kind-of live with if only the creators were honest with their backers, but this particular project leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

I didn’t back that particular project but have followed it out of morbid curiosity. Have you noticed that the physical location of project creators is always kept secret.
In these kind of situations it would be ‘interesting’ if a couple of suits showed up at their door some early Sunday morning. Or intercept them as they head to their car and have a little ‘conversation’ about ‘personal responsibility’ when you take peoples money.
With Guido on one side and Bubba on the other I somewhat think this fellow might find a way to quickly return money to backers.

 

[zuiko85]

Have not yet finished my project of using the Jollylook development module in a better camera, but have at least established the lens flange distance for infinity.
I know that such thoughts are useless but I keep thinking that for my $48 I could have bought 10 rolls of film from B&H.
That would actually be worth $48, this.....not so much. The