Just got a nice Kiev 4 - any advice would be welcome

[Zorki fan]

Hi all,
I've just had a bad case of GAS and have bought, in the span of 4 days, 2 Kiev 4s and 1 FED 2. The wife does NOT need to know about this..
Anyway, my questions center around the Kiev 4.
Its a '68 model, according to the number in the shoe.
Appearance-wise, looks very nice, slightly better in terms of the other Kiev 4, which is a '83 I think. The fit of the base-plate, for one, looks much better in the earlier vintage.
So, on to the questions.

- Upon firing of the shutter, occasionally the winder seems to 'jam' a little, preventing me from advancing the winder, until the shutter is depressed again. Only then would I be able to advance the winder. Common problem? Sign of worse things to come?

- Also, when advancing the winder, its smooth, then resistance, which I take is normal, and then the last quarter turn etc is a 'little' jarring. Not too much, just that the feeling is not too consistent.

- The kit I got came with a J-12. However, it does not seem to mount properly. Red dots lines up and then turn till..? The focussing seems to be rather stiff as well.

- When focussing, there is a slight rough spot. Any tips on solving that? Or links to sites that could tell me how to get rid of this rough spot?

- Leatherette covering. What do you all use to clean it?

Overall, am pleased with what I've gotten. Would just like to sort these issues out so that I've a good shooter.
Let me know tips, words of advice or links to Kiev sites that could help.

Thanks a ton in advance.

Alvin – Singapore

 

[RichardS]

I have a Kiev 4 or a 4A. I have the one without the exposure meter and I never remember which is which. When I advance the winder, mine does the same thing you say yours is doing, so I assume that is normal. At least it hasn't caused me any problem. The focus ring turns very easily and smoothly on mine. The covering on mine doesn't need any cleaning, so I can't help you there.

The Kiev is pretty well covered at http://www.keithberry.telinco.co.uk/Kiev-4.htm but I don't know if it will answer your questions or not. I enjoy using mine and the only problem I have is remembering to move my finger so it doesn't cover the rangefinder window.

Dick

 

[rbiemer]

Alvin,
good luck keeping this from the wife🙂
On my '67 vintage 4a, the shutter button can be turned to lock the shutter open for long exposures and some times this happens when I don't want it to and then the winding seems wrong. I think it needs to be set so the very small dots line up when you don't want the shutter locked open(don't have mine handy right now) and turned so the dots don't line up when you do want the shutter to stay open. Easy to check which way is which.
When winding on, I think the last quarter(or so) turn is cocking the shutter and is harder to turn then.
My J-12 lens doesn't turn as smoothly as the J-8 and fits very tightly into the camera.
Hope this helps some!
Rob
Edit: for cleaning I use a very slightly damp cloth (just water).

 

[wlewisiii]

Nice buy! The winding is smooth until it gets to the point where it actually is cocking the shutter. Then there is more resistance for the last part of the wind. This is the way the shutter is designed and my Contax III acts the same way.

Make sure both the lens and the camera are set to infinity before trying to mount the lens, then line it up and turn counterclockwise. The J-12 can be very stiff - a relube will help it tremendously. Search RFF - there is a great how-to thread with good illustrations.

My attitude to cleaning the leatherette is a real leather covering kit from Aki-Asahi http://www.aki-asahi.com/store/ My personal favorite is the red, though I'm thinking naughty thoughts about Lizard Yellow and my Moskva 5... 😀

A good site on the guts of the camera is the Kiev Survival site http://www3.telus.net/public/kaylalyn/ More good info there than you can imagine.

Enjoy! You've got a great kit there.

William

 

[Pherdinand]

Hi Alvin.
Some experience I had w my Kiev 4 from 1960-something.

-I had the same thing with the winding, WHEN the kiev was partially dismantled to repair the shutter. The sprocket counter wheel and its ax hat do be loosened via a wide-head screw. The screw is visible from the bottom through a hole, when the camera back is removed. When I re-tightened the screw, the windig got okay again. Might be that the screw in yours is lose a bit and the sprocket counter mechanism wobbles... Just an idea.

-Advance/cock happens as follows: First the film starts to be advanced; after some time the shutter curtains are pulled upwards so it feels more resistent (the springs get more tensioned); finally, the bottom curtain is locked and only the top curtain is moved further, to its final position, therefore the tension on the wind knob changes again. It is normal.

-Have no J12 myself so don't know about this.


-When focusing, my Kiev has two "rough spots", feeling like click stops, and they are at *exact* distance settings (i think 3 m and 5 m, or 2 m and 5 m, can't recall now). It seems to me that it's deliberately made like that, to "feel the distance" without looking on the scale.

Hope it helps; greetings

 

[JoeFriday]

the 4a is the meterless version

both my 4a's have J8's so I don't know about a J12 setup.. but my J8's both focus very smoothly without the rough spots that Pherdi has.. the film advance is just as everyone says, altho it's fairly subtle on both my cameras.. there's no jarring at all.. and I never have the shutter/advance jam

but good choice for relieving some GAS.. they're beauties, aren't they?

 

[Zorki fan]

Hi all,
Thanks for the tips.
So okay, the winding mechanism seems to be okay, aside from my occasional inability to wind it after pressing the shutter button.
I've spent last evening combing through the Kiev Survival site. Amazing detail, the site owner should be knighted.
But naturally, am leery about doing some of the work, it does seem rather complicated.
May have someone do a CLA for me instead. Singapore-based posters, where would you send your Russian cams to??

And finally. Is it worth while to get a mid-50s model to add to the collection?
Why would I want it?
- Quality during the earlier years is supposed to be better
- I like the fold-out foot.. hahah
So, aside from the foot, any other good reasons why I should get it? Camera in question has been advertised as 'working perfectly' Right.

Anyway, will update you folks with this terrible GAS saga.

Thanks for all the tips!

Alvin

 

[ErnestoJL]

My Kiev 4 does the same when winding (its a ´66 model). I´ve tasted... er... tested several Contaxes, pre and post war models, all the same feeling, so don´t worry as long as you wind the shutter before changing shutter speed. Failing to do so may lead you to disaster.
Changing speed was allways a bit rough both in Contaxes and Kievs. A little lub may hep, I guess.

My J-8 fits perfectly in the camera mount, but I´ve tested several where the lens doesn´t jump in at the first try. Those showed allways some roughness when focusing. Check if the lens once aligned with the body can be easily seated and rotated to the locked position. Some users/repairmen dont take care and force the lens into position which distorts the "tongues" in the lens barrel. This can be the reason for your problem with J-12.

Any good reason to get a mid fifties Kiev:
I like it
I need it.
Three is better than just two...
Ohhhh...i´s a beatifull one...

Good luck and enjoy the new babies!!!.

 

[rpinchbeck]

Alvin, I might be able to add a bit more to the already well answered replies posted. Thanks for the nice words about being "knighted", yes I am the Kiev Survival Site guy, if you ask my wife I think she uses the phrase along the lines of being "crowned" or just smacked up side the head, or something like that.

- Upon firing of the shutter, occasionally the winder seems to 'jam' a little, preventing me from advancing the winder, until the shutter is depressed again. Only then would I be able to advance the winder. Common problem? Sign of worse things to come?

This topic was covered some time ago on the Beststuff Russian Camera User forum. See this thread:
http://www.beststuff.com/forums/read.php?f=21&i=14404&t=14404

- Also, when advancing the winder, its smooth, then resistance, which I take is normal, and then the last quarter turn etc is a 'little' jarring. Not too much, just that the feeling is not too consistent.

As mentioned, this action is characteristic of winding the shutter. The first smooth portion is only advancing the film sprocket until suddenly some resistance. This is when the shutter curtain is being lifted up and then the top curtain disengages and winds further on. All this is winding against the return spring and depending on which shutter speed is selected you may be winding with the resistance of the shutter escapement mechanisms. You' notice a marked difference between 1/125 and 1/50 as the escapement is switched in. Now, if what you describe is happening when you have one of 1/125 to 1/1250 speeds selected then there is something more here.

- The kit I got came with a J-12. However, it does not seem to mount properly. Red dots lines up and then turn till..? The focussing seems to be rather stiff as well.

As mentioned, with a J-12 you set the camera and the lens at infinity and you line the red dots up to insert the lens and turn until the red dot on the lens is at the 12:00 o'clock position. You may hear a click at the focus latches on the J-12 body engage the focus helical slots. I always wiggle the focus of the lens off of infinity just to make sure it has caught the helical.

- When focussing, there is a slight rough spot. Any tips on solving that? Or links to sites that could tell me how to get rid of this rough spot?

I've got one Kiev that has a tight spot at around 1.15m on the helical even after relubing. I suspect a small bind somewhere but I tend to focus my Kiev's by turning the lens as oppose to turning the little focus wheel on top of the camera body. If you turn your focus with no lens attached do you still have the rough spot? If not, the J-12 may need a spot of grease. See my page on re-lubing a J-12:
http://www3.telus.net/public/kaylalyn/Jupiter-12 dismantle.html
It's realy not that difficult.

- Leatherette covering. What do you all use to clean it?

I usually tear the late model leatherette off and apply some real leather. Sometime you can find some realy good deals at leather stores when they clear out women's purses or wallets. Save your old leatherette as a pattern, take your wife shopping for a new leather coat and while she is trying on some coats, make your score in the clearance bin.

Hope this helps.

Cheers

Russ Pinchbeck
Kiev Survival Site
Calgary, Alberta

 

[pangkievrange]

Hi all,
I've just had a bad case of GAS and have bought, in the span of 4 days, 2 Kiev 4s and 1 FED 2. The wife does NOT need to know about this..
Anyway, my questions center around the Kiev 4.
Its a '68 model, according to the number in the shoe.
Appearance-wise, looks very nice, slightly better in terms of the other Kiev 4, which is a '83 I think. The fit of the base-plate, for one, looks much better in the earlier vintage.
So, on to the questions.

- Upon firing of the shutter, occasionally the winder seems to 'jam' a little, preventing me from advancing the winder, until the shutter is depressed again. Only then would I be able to advance the winder. Common problem? Sign of worse things to come?

- Also, when advancing the winder, its smooth, then resistance, which I take is normal, and then the last quarter turn etc is a 'little' jarring. Not too much, just that the feeling is not too consistent.

- The kit I got came with a J-12. However, it does not seem to mount properly. Red dots lines up and then turn till..? The focussing seems to be rather stiff as well.

- When focussing, there is a slight rough spot. Any tips on solving that? Or links to sites that could tell me how to get rid of this rough spot?

- Leatherette covering. What do you all use to clean it?

Overall, am pleased with what I've gotten. Would just like to sort these issues out so that I've a good shooter.
Let me know tips, words of advice or links to Kiev sites that could help.

Thanks a ton in advance.

Alvin – Singapore

Jaming problem before winding has something to do with a locking level, a small spring, and a tip holding the spring. The orientation of the tip determines the final result. I fixed one of kiev 4a and found this problem. Later on, I opened it and decided that I could live with that. If you want to lube j-12, you can apply grease onto the helical mechanism from the rear. After several rotations, the grease will transfer. I fixed 2 of jupiter 12 this way that had dried lubricant. Many thanks to Russ's kiev survival site. I typically mount j12, j-9, j11 (at infinity) when the focus is at 3+m.

pangkievrange

 

[Zorki fan]

Hi all,
thanks for all the replies and tips so far.
Okay, I've just gotten back and done a careful mounting of the J-12 onto the Kiev 4. Line up red dots, turn anti-clockwise till click is heard and red dot is at 12 o'clock. Nice.. But hang on a min! The mount(silver part of the lens) can still turn! In fact, it'll turn till the clip hits the Infinity Lock Disengage button, also known as 'silver prong thingy'.
Is that right??
They din cover this at school..

Aside from the above, am still feeling pretty chuffed at my buy. Been wanting to get a J-12 in either a LTM or Kiev mount for a while, so when this deal came up, I pretty much leapt.

Thanks a lot once again.

Alvin

 

[Zorki fan]

Hi all,
Okay, I've gone and broken the Kiev 4.
Was surfing the web and cocking and firing the shutter. Sort of giving the Kiev a 'workout'. Well, I guess that the old dame could not take the work out.
Now, when cocked, the upper curtain raises, but the bottom stays, well, at the bottom. Firing the shutter gives a wheezy and very weak dropping of the top curtain.
Shutter ribbon given way? Or is the news worse?
Surprisingly, I'm not too upset over this happening.
On a certain level, given the age and the unknown history of the cameras we play with, a breakdown is almost certain to happen. *Glass half full* Plus, I'm extremely keen on learning how these little gems work.
So break the news to me.
What's broken and how do I fix it?
rpinchbeck, you do make house calls right? 🙂

Alvin

 

[pangkievrange]

You may not break your kiev. Wind it again (whether the curtain goes up or not) and change speed to 1/125. Fire it up. This time, the hook may catch up. The second curtain sometime may not go up due to hooking. Exercising the shutter may sovle the problem.

pangkievrange

 

[pangkievrange]

you even can pull up the second curtain with your hand if you feel unsure during the winding process.

pangkievrange

 

[rpinchbeck]

Hi all,
Okay, I've gone and broken the Kiev 4.
Was surfing the web and cocking and firing the shutter. Sort of giving the Kiev a 'workout'. Well, I guess that the old dame could not take the work out.
Now, when cocked, the upper curtain raises, but the bottom stays, well, at the bottom. Firing the shutter gives a wheezy and very weak dropping of the top curtain.
Shutter ribbon given way? Or is the news worse?
Surprisingly, I'm not too upset over this happening.
On a certain level, given the age and the unknown history of the cameras we play with, a breakdown is almost certain to happen. *Glass half full* Plus, I'm extremely keen on learning how these little gems work.
So break the news to me.
What's broken and how do I fix it?
rpinchbeck, you do make house calls right? 🙂

Alvin

House calls? Singapore? I'll be right over.

Sounds like the top curtain is not latching with the bottom curtain. I'm afraid the best method to diagnose this would be to remove the back film casting to really see what is mucked up. If the ribbons were broken the top curtain would not return back to the bottom when you fired the shutter. One ribbon broken? Maybe, but with close observation you would see the top curtain try disengage from the bottom one and pull askew. Be brave, pull the back casting off, you will learn a lot by looking inside.

Cheers

Russ

 

[Pherdinand]

As russ says, both ribbons cannot be broken. One ribbon would mean the curtain sits in an angle in the hole. Believe me - i have seen this, it was terrifying to see how awkwardly the shutter curtains behave when one ribbon is broken. Like a dog with three legs.

Probably it's a capping problem you have. Two little hooks on the left and right side of the bottom curtain have to catch two holes on the top curtain; with ageing, this might get difficult. I also have this occasionally, but only on one side (where the ribbon was broken) so the shutter still works and is light-tight.

Do take a look in there, things will get clear immediately.

 

[ruben]

Hi Alvin,

"I'm extremely keen on learning how these little gems work"

In my opinion this is the key from all your Kiev adventure. Russ Pinchbeck site has opened heaven for the Kiev user not knowledgeable of camera fixing, me included. No doubt at first glance things look difficult to perform. But bit by bit they become clearer and clearer..

Breaking a Kiev can be a good investment as it can be your learning tool for further surgery,
and having spare parts is very convenient if you become in love with this camera and purchase more of them.

I have 3 of them, plus a broken by me one, and another is comming soon. After some treatment the winding knob should work work smoothly at all stages, like a Swiss clock. The last stage of winding should be a bit harder but still smooth.

In most cases the problems with the Kiev bodies are due to the old grease and oil stiffened by time and dirt. From here two possible approaches may follow: The "radical" (full surgery) and the "minimalist". After trying both, as a newbie, I suggest the minimalist one: Minimum dismantling, very patient cleaning, and a bit (a BIT !) of cleaning oil. No grease.

Always remember that the Kievs and Contaxes are extremely accurate and sophysticated machines.

Cheers,
Ruben