NorpA
Established
Hi there,
I am starting a new resurrection project, and to rise the complexity bar for my technical skills, I am now looking at Kiev.
The current specimen allows focusing between infinity and 2m, the helicoid seems stuck and doesn't reach 0.9m
Additionally I do not see any movement in the rangefinder image.
Does it ring a bell?
Is this situation suggesting a previous (unsuccessful) attempt to repair the camera?
Strangely enough the camera looks pristine, without even a scratch or any sign suggesting a previous CLA.
I am starting a new resurrection project, and to rise the complexity bar for my technical skills, I am now looking at Kiev.
The current specimen allows focusing between infinity and 2m, the helicoid seems stuck and doesn't reach 0.9m
Additionally I do not see any movement in the rangefinder image.
Does it ring a bell?
Is this situation suggesting a previous (unsuccessful) attempt to repair the camera?
Strangely enough the camera looks pristine, without even a scratch or any sign suggesting a previous CLA.
It sounds like the gear between the RF mechanism and Helical is off.
What repair instructions are you using?
What repair instructions are you using?
NorpA
Established
Hello, thanks for the prompt answer. Actually I am in planning mode for the moment, meaning I am gathering material and reading around. Maizemberg, Kiev Survival Site, Flickr, few contax pages.
My question was mostly to clarify if I am facing a common aging issue, or it was the result of an unsuccessful previous CLA. From your answer I tend to believe (I hope) it may be the first case.
My question was mostly to clarify if I am facing a common aging issue, or it was the result of an unsuccessful previous CLA. From your answer I tend to believe (I hope) it may be the first case.
NorpA
Established
Short update, I am confident in considering this camera as good specimen for a CLA, since it exhibits all symptoms seen in this article
https://web.archive.org/web/20040624082246/http://www.host.fptoday.com/melek/zeiss/repair/start.html
https://web.archive.org/web/20040624082246/http://www.host.fptoday.com/melek/zeiss/repair/start.html
TenEleven
Well-known
The rangefinder issue seems like something that you'd only get after someone already messed with it. The Contax II (and thus Kiev) rangefinder mechanism doesn't make for the largest or most brightest viewfinder, but it's basically (under normal circumstances, when it doesn't get screwdrivered) near impossible to get out of alignment or as in your case no RF movement at all.
That would concern me as the RF is directly geared to the helical via the razor wheel. If turning the razor wheel moves the helical but doesn't move the RF something is quite seriously amiss.
I've repaired a couple of Contax IIs but all I usually had to do with the rangefinder was to clean it and lubricate some of the pivots. Even after taking out the focus helical for a cleaning if you put it back at the marked spot the RF would still attain the correct infinity position. The main work was usually replacing the shutter ribbons and cleaning and re-lubricating the shutter and wind assy.
That would concern me as the RF is directly geared to the helical via the razor wheel. If turning the razor wheel moves the helical but doesn't move the RF something is quite seriously amiss.
I've repaired a couple of Contax IIs but all I usually had to do with the rangefinder was to clean it and lubricate some of the pivots. Even after taking out the focus helical for a cleaning if you put it back at the marked spot the RF would still attain the correct infinity position. The main work was usually replacing the shutter ribbons and cleaning and re-lubricating the shutter and wind assy.
Coldkennels
Barnack-toting Brit.
That might be the case with pre-war Contaxes and early Kievs but definitely not the case with later ones.
I had a Kiev 4 turn up with a wildly inaccurate rangefinder and a Kiev 4AM that started fine but took a knock and then was significantly out. Both had seemingly skipped a tooth in the gearing between the lens mount and the rangefinder unit - removing the lens mount and resetting the helical properly sorted it out. I couldn't see any obvious signs that someone had been in the Kiev 4 before so I think it was just knocked about a bit before it ended up in my hands.
The experience left me with a bit of concern about the overall design. Not only is the Contax/Kiev system a pain in the ass to recalibrate compared to the screwmount Leicas, but the way the focusing helical is built into the body and easily levered about with a long enough 50mm lens attached makes me far less willing to just throw one in a bag and go - I feel like I have to mollycoddle them a bit.
Anyway, hopefully that's all that's wrong with yours, NorpA. Getting the front plate off to access the lens mount is a bit of a pain in the ass, but not impossible - you have to sort of lever it upwards over the RF housing, which can be a tight squeeze (I tried to do this with my Contax II to clean it up and eventually abandoned the idea). After that, the lens mount itself doesn't need to be removed fully, just lifted enough to realign the gears. However, if the RF image isn't moving at all, you might have to get under the top to see what's wrong, and that's a fair bit more work.
It's good the screw mount rangefinders are easier to calibrate than the Contax II because they need to be done more frequently. Over 80 years later, it's still the exception if a Contax is not as precisely calibrated as the day ZI made it.
TenEleven
Well-known
I have had Contax IIs on my repair bench that had been dropped and I'm not saying dropped 2' feet - it looked more like dropped 6' down the stairs onto concrete. Both windows were shattered, the rewind knob got shorn off. The lapel was completely mangled... BUT..the RF was still in alignment. These gears don't just go about skipping teeth unless something seriously goes wrong. OR someone screwdrivered it before.
The reason your Kiev skipped or slipped is because a previous repairer most likely didn't screw down the focus wedge assembly tightly.
This usually happens after someone takes it apart, loses a washer or two and then the focus can feel very gritty and not nice, despite being clean. The common "trick" is then to simply not tighten down the screws as they should be, then the focus feels nice again - at the expense of accuracy and durability. This has nothing to do with the design at all. These washers, it turns out, are there for a reason.
As I stated above and as echoed by Brett, the design is pretty much bomb-proof unless someone previously screwed with it.
It's also nearly impossible to "lever" the helical into the RF assy, even with the lens fully out at 3' (0.9m) if you've taken one apart you should know that the helical even at the fully screwed out stage sill reaches a good 2/3rds of an inch into the camera.
The reason your Kiev skipped or slipped is because a previous repairer most likely didn't screw down the focus wedge assembly tightly.
This usually happens after someone takes it apart, loses a washer or two and then the focus can feel very gritty and not nice, despite being clean. The common "trick" is then to simply not tighten down the screws as they should be, then the focus feels nice again - at the expense of accuracy and durability. This has nothing to do with the design at all. These washers, it turns out, are there for a reason.
As I stated above and as echoed by Brett, the design is pretty much bomb-proof unless someone previously screwed with it.
It's also nearly impossible to "lever" the helical into the RF assy, even with the lens fully out at 3' (0.9m) if you've taken one apart you should know that the helical even at the fully screwed out stage sill reaches a good 2/3rds of an inch into the camera.
TenEleven
Well-known
Also reasoning backwards from the Kiev 4, which is close to KMZ lowest-point - quality wise - to infer on the quality of the mechanisms of the original Contax II seems a bit rich.
My main beater Contax II was the first camera I serviced, it now has according to my Lightroom roughly ~1100 rolls put through it. It's been dropped more than once, it has been used in rain and and in snow. It went to mountains and beaches. It wasn't pretty when I got it and is even less so now. But it works and it works smoothly.
The RF unit still is sealed in place with the laquer that a Zeiss worker put on in 1935. It never needed adjustment.
My main beater Contax II was the first camera I serviced, it now has according to my Lightroom roughly ~1100 rolls put through it. It's been dropped more than once, it has been used in rain and and in snow. It went to mountains and beaches. It wasn't pretty when I got it and is even less so now. But it works and it works smoothly.
The RF unit still is sealed in place with the laquer that a Zeiss worker put on in 1935. It never needed adjustment.
Coldkennels
Barnack-toting Brit.
By "levering" I was talking about the front nameplate itself, not the lens mount. The only way I've ever been able to remove them is by lifting from the bottom and having to lever them over the RF housing; even on the sloppiest of Kievs, it's an annoyingly tight fit.
With regards to adjusting the lens mount gearing on both the Kiev 4 and the 4AM was a different kettle of fish - I was referring to the section shown at http://web.archive.org/web/20130122...s.net/public/rpnchbck/adjust rangefinder.html where the lens mount is lifted just enough to decouple the focusing mechanism from what KSS refers to as the "focus drive gear". That did the trick on both.
Incidentally, the 4AM's vertical alignment is still fractionally out, and I'm not sure what annoys me more: the fact it's out, or the fact there's no easy adjustment to it short of a full strip down and repositioning/regluing one of the rangefinder elements. It's such a ridiculous design choice.Yeah, it may be more solid... until it isn't.
But yes, I will acknowledge that the late Kievs are nothing like as tightly-made as the Contax. It's not even close. I keep thinking about picking up a Kiev 2 to get a more accurate comparison, but there's no way to know just what sort of abuse a 1950s Kiev has been subject to over the years. I'd also quite like to pick up a Kiev 5 to see if the Soviets did anything to simplify the design at all for easier production and maintenance, but I can't really justify the cost of that whim!
With regards to adjusting the lens mount gearing on both the Kiev 4 and the 4AM was a different kettle of fish - I was referring to the section shown at http://web.archive.org/web/20130122...s.net/public/rpnchbck/adjust rangefinder.html where the lens mount is lifted just enough to decouple the focusing mechanism from what KSS refers to as the "focus drive gear". That did the trick on both.
Incidentally, the 4AM's vertical alignment is still fractionally out, and I'm not sure what annoys me more: the fact it's out, or the fact there's no easy adjustment to it short of a full strip down and repositioning/regluing one of the rangefinder elements. It's such a ridiculous design choice.Yeah, it may be more solid... until it isn't.
But yes, I will acknowledge that the late Kievs are nothing like as tightly-made as the Contax. It's not even close. I keep thinking about picking up a Kiev 2 to get a more accurate comparison, but there's no way to know just what sort of abuse a 1950s Kiev has been subject to over the years. I'd also quite like to pick up a Kiev 5 to see if the Soviets did anything to simplify the design at all for easier production and maintenance, but I can't really justify the cost of that whim!
NorpA
Established
Dear sir, you nailed it.
Your comment really helped me to arrive at heart of the issue.
Even when extracted, the helicoid is really stiff. I noticed the entire camera was full of small particles/grains (sales? oxides?) maybe some of those landed within the helicoid.
If I understand correcly the helicoid should turn without any grease. I am using some lighter fluid to clean around while rotating around infinite and 0.9
Any suggestion to make the rotation smoother?
NorpA
Established
well I couldn't resist, I acted considering the lens mount helical as a normal lens. I lubed the helicoid with some grease (white lubricant for lens/telescope), without a full dismantle, just accessing the visible portions between infinite and 0.9.
The rotation seems much better now. I will let it sleep for few hours and try again.
The rotation seems much better now. I will let it sleep for few hours and try again.
NorpA
Established
Dear sir, you nailed also this point.
Fixed the lens mount focusing mechanism, now smooth as butter, I still have the RFF decoupled from the focusing distance.
My assumption, the entire compensator mechanism doesn't engage anymore the barrel.
I can turn the plano-convex group only releasing a bit the pivot screw under the RFF lenses.
Probably I will park this project.
For the moment studying this video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARcGdXNXifM
Coldkennels
Barnack-toting Brit.
Well, I'm glad to hear you got the helicoid running smoothly. Unfortunately it sounds like yep, you're now en route to a near-total strip-down to get access to the RF mechanism, and I don't envy you that one bit.
Please come back and keep us updated with what you find!
Please come back and keep us updated with what you find!