Kiev frame spacing, again...

[fidget]

Well, I was really impressed by the condition of my 75 Kiev 4a. Passed all my tests, had only tight frame spacing so wasn't really a problem. Dragged it around on a walking (and wheezing) holiday for a week, took 4 rolls: one slide, one Delta100 and two colour print.
I really should have given it a 36 exposure film before I pronounced it as a good one.....I noticed that nearing the end on the slide flim, the rewind post didn't move much when I wound on, I watched it suspiciously as it rounded the counter corner to 0 again. The Delta100 was tried, as far as I remember this looked good all the way through and hit the end at around 39. The colour film went through OK too. On developing the Delta100, I could see that the spacing was close up to around frame 25 ish then all the remaining frames have serious overlap, maybe up to 1/3 frame on some. Not sure if it's worth sending the slide film away, or even the print.
It's a good cure for GAS anyway. Thankfully I have a few frames of the holiday in my Ricoh GR1v so all is not lost, just frustrating, very frustrating, put-em-all-on-feebay sort of frustrating......😡
Any known cure for the overlap probs?

Dave..

 

[peterc]

1. Sorry to hear about the possible loss of the holiday pics.
2. My experience with the 4a (two of them) is that the takeup spool can be a major factor in frame spacing. One 4a had an aftermarket takeup spool (a modified spool from a film cassette) and suffered from frame overlap. I tried a number of cures but the spacing issue remained. However, the cure (at least for my Kiev) was a spool from an old Contax metal cassette.

Peter

 

[Ash]

I use a metal take-up spool on a 4a. I get wide spacing between frames, and on one roll I've had the frames touching but nnot overlapping

I'd get the slide film dev'd. Frame spacing is erratic at best, so you might get lucky on the good shots.

If you want to sell the kiev, give it a week or few and I'll buy it 😀

 

[Xmas]

Fidget

Even Russ Pinchbeck has problems with spacing in one of his Kievs.

The slipping clutch coaxial is with (and just above) the forks of the film take up spool, can be too tight or too lose and it is difficult to adjust. The drive mechanism for the sprocket shaft can be worn. And it is not impossible to strip teeth from the gear wheels.

The first thing to do is to have a scrap film 36 exposure and a 3B or similar graphite pencil and soft eraser.

Load up the Kiev and srun the film through sepecting B (actually T) and mark the film through the shutter gate with the lens off, 1st, 2nd etc.

Altering the slipping clutch is easy, just losen the screw in the centre of the forks, the mechanism will drop out, make sure you note the parts sequence, clean, and reassemble. And try again with the scrap film. If you are lucky that may be sufficient. Streatching the spring will tighten the clutch, lossening will slaken off the clutch, filing is easier, the spring is meaty.

On my Kievs which have all had clutches which were too tight I just drip in some PTFE lube.

If I have the top plate of I normally shim the shafts so the gears engage 100% under load as some are badly offset, just waiting to stirip if you use estar film.

Noel

 

[fidget]

Thanks for your help.
I was tempted to ditch em. Anyway, having looked closely at the B&W frames which made it, I mellowed and decided to stay with the program. My previous Kiev (79) user had no problems with frame spacing other than being a little closer than modern cameras, so I looked closely at it. The clutch is a little lighter, so I re-assembled 75 and fitted an original Kiev take up spool, I noticed that the spring tab at the winding side is meant for a cassette and plays little part in tensioning the film until plenty is wound on, which is a bit of a coincidence as the problem really starts when plenty of film has been wound on!......what's in yours, and how's it tensioned?

 

[Stu W]

Fidget, the sprocketed shaft that advances the film is directly geared to the wind on assembly. The only way for the frames to overlap is for the takeup spool, which is clutched, to be slipping or not turning fast enough, or not be positively engaged in the fork properly, allowing the film to not be properly engaged in the sprockets. There should be some evidence in the condition of the sprocket holes on the film. Also, the rewind plunger on the back cover must not be too long as it will disengage or partially disengage the film advance. Also, the bottom bearing for the toothed advance spool must be there and properly screwed in. It is visible under the shutter assembly, through a hole where the rewind pluger sits when the back cover is on. I also try to limit myself to 24 exposure rolls. Whew. Long answer. Stu

 

[Stu W]

Also, the more film on the take-up spool, the more likely the camera will be to have the film disengage from the advance sprocket and cause overlap. I think everyones advice re takeup spools and adjusting/cleaning the clutch are right on. You may also want to increase the drag on the rewind side, or at least periodically tension the film as this prevent the film from disengaging the advance sprocket. Whew. Stu

 

[Ash]

yea, I gently rotate the rewind knob every few shots just to be sure.