msarkki
Member
Hi. I had my Kiev (model -49) shutter ribbons replaced. The camera worked fine for a few rolls, but now the shutter is stuck uncocked. I checked the shutter and even took it out from the camera and nothing obvious seems to be wrong.
When I try to cock the shutter I see a only little movement (1-2mm) on the curtain but then something blocks the movement. It is also impossible to change times, same applies, something is blocking the movement.
Lower drum seems to have tension and the curtain would move freely if upper drum would raise the curtain. I see that all the cogwheels on the path from upper drum to the wheel used for cocking the shutter are moving just a bit when trying to cock the shutter. If I press the shutter release and then try to cog the shutter all the cogwheels related to film advance rotate freely until shutter starts cocking, then the movement blocks. The levers around the wheel for cocking do not seem to block the movement.
While taking out the shutter upper drum axle came out around 1 inch, I just pushed it back. Are there any springs or something that would require axle in the upper drum to be in certain position?
Any other ideas what to still check from the shutter, or is it time to start looking for a donor from ebay? I wouldn't like to give up on the original one since I would have brand new shutter ribbons in the original shutter.
When I try to cock the shutter I see a only little movement (1-2mm) on the curtain but then something blocks the movement. It is also impossible to change times, same applies, something is blocking the movement.
Lower drum seems to have tension and the curtain would move freely if upper drum would raise the curtain. I see that all the cogwheels on the path from upper drum to the wheel used for cocking the shutter are moving just a bit when trying to cock the shutter. If I press the shutter release and then try to cog the shutter all the cogwheels related to film advance rotate freely until shutter starts cocking, then the movement blocks. The levers around the wheel for cocking do not seem to block the movement.
While taking out the shutter upper drum axle came out around 1 inch, I just pushed it back. Are there any springs or something that would require axle in the upper drum to be in certain position?
Any other ideas what to still check from the shutter, or is it time to start looking for a donor from ebay? I wouldn't like to give up on the original one since I would have brand new shutter ribbons in the original shutter.
msarkki
Member
Replying to my self - fixed - shutter synchronisation with Maizenberg's book
Replying to my self - fixed - shutter synchronisation with Maizenberg's book
Hi,
The final problem was the upper drum axle slipping out and loss of synch in the shutter (still I cannot figure out what jammed it in the first place, since axle cannot drop out when shutter is in the camera). I am replying to myself since there seems to be little info publicly available on Kiev or Contax shutter synchronisation.
I received some valuable information on some other forum members, big thanks to the persons involved. Key was to look the Maizenberg's book e.g. from ussrphoto.com. From page 349 onwards there are plenty of instructions for Kiev 2, 3 and 4. Key pictures are on page 366 (fig. 324) page 367 (fig. 325) and figs 327 and 328 on page 370. Book instructs to do the synching with 1/10 sec time or if you're skilled with 1/1250 time set on shutter. I found out the easiest way to use B instead. This is how I managed to do it, cannot guarantee that this is the way to do it, but at least my shutter started to work and seems to be nearly perfectly sync'd (see 1/1250 check below)
First, take out the shutter out of the camera body(which you probably did already, if you're reading this and the upper drum axle fell out...). There are couple of covers on the lens side of the shutter. These need to be removed in order to get to the drums. Cover attaching to lens mount/helicoid is just removed by pulling it out, the other cover is held by 4 screws, which are easily visible. Cover can be easily removed when upper curtain is down.
Next thing is to take the axle out from upper drum (note that the ends are different, so memorize the position to insert it back correctly) and get the upper drum loose, so that both cogwheels - above (small coming from winding mechanism) and below the big main wheel for timing mechanism can be rotated freely.
Make sure that time is set to "B" and release the shutter by pressing the shutter release button. Turn the upmost small wheel back as far as it goes counterclockwise (looking from the curtain crate side of the shutter). This makes sure that the winding/cocking mechanism is in the shutter released position.
Next take the Maizenbergs book and check picture 324 a). Look the position of the wheel "13". Check as well picture 325 a). This is how your shutter should look like uncocked, time set to "B". Turn the big main cogwheel to get it to match with picture 324 a). I see 2 options, either you tape the big wheel in correct position or you estimate by trial-and-error the movement of big cog wheel which takes place when you insert the upper drum back in its correct place.
Insert the upper drum back in its correct place and secure it with the axle. Easiest way for me was to insert axle half-way - you could still move the cogwheel end of the drum as needed. Outcome should be that the small wheel from the winding mechanism should not be turned (not at least a lot) and your shutter should look like in pictures 324 a) and 325 a). This probably requires a few takes, but I did not feel it as difficult as I originally thought it would be.
A mistake I made was that I rolled upper curtain too tight on the drum while inserting it back in place. This resulted that curtains would not lock properly, since upper curtain became "too short". So do not roll the curtain to the drum, for me the success was when it was not real tight, but a bit loose, but just a little bit.
When done and upper drum is back in place it should be possible to cock the shutter and fire it. Before doing it note, that if you have not yet inserted back the metal cover covering the drums you're missing the other "hook" which will separate the curtains from each other. So using very gentle touch (e.g. with small screwdriver) make sure that the curtains will get detached in the correct phase when cocking the shutter. Or just install the metal cover back, but you might need to take it off again (look below)
In order to check whether you managed to get the synch in place set the time to 1/1250 and cock the shutter. Check picture 327. There should be 6-7 teeth visible in the thicker part of the big cogwheel before the drum cogwheel. There should as well be 1,5-2 curtain slats visible as in picture 328. If that is the case, my understanding is that then you got it synched perfectly. If not, then time back to "B", axle out and redo the procedure above. Make sure that the topmost cogwheel is as well rolled back to shutter uncocked position, otherwise it is impossible to cock the shutter. With a few trial and errors it is possible to get the sync correct. Or if you're skilled Zeiss/Kiev technician, just do the whole synching as in pictures 327 and 328. Shutter cocked, time set to 1/1250 and upper curtain rolled just the right amount to the upper drum. I tried, did not manage to do it
When done build back the metal covers and put the shutter back to the camera and go shooting...
As said, that's how I revived my Kiev, but still no guarantees on the procedure above. If someone feels that there is something terribly wrong please shout it out loud. And before messing with the shutter it is worth reading all the info you can get. Be careful not to bend anything and not to get the small springs detached. When firing the shutter when off-the-camera I use very gentle braking with my fingers on the curtains from film side of the shutter to emulate the cover which normally is in place on the film side of the shutter. If you do not have anything in place to keep the curtains against the shutter, the curtains can overlap etc. all kind of weird things can happen.
Google translator translates Russian suprisingly nicely from Maizenberg's book. It is possible to get the basic understanding. And as said, the correct method according to the book would be to use 1/10 time or 1/1250 time, still I did it with "B". The pictures referred above contain illustrations for multiple shutter times so they are really useful to check that shutter is set correctly.
Replying to my self - fixed - shutter synchronisation with Maizenberg's book
Hi,
The final problem was the upper drum axle slipping out and loss of synch in the shutter (still I cannot figure out what jammed it in the first place, since axle cannot drop out when shutter is in the camera). I am replying to myself since there seems to be little info publicly available on Kiev or Contax shutter synchronisation.
I received some valuable information on some other forum members, big thanks to the persons involved. Key was to look the Maizenberg's book e.g. from ussrphoto.com. From page 349 onwards there are plenty of instructions for Kiev 2, 3 and 4. Key pictures are on page 366 (fig. 324) page 367 (fig. 325) and figs 327 and 328 on page 370. Book instructs to do the synching with 1/10 sec time or if you're skilled with 1/1250 time set on shutter. I found out the easiest way to use B instead. This is how I managed to do it, cannot guarantee that this is the way to do it, but at least my shutter started to work and seems to be nearly perfectly sync'd (see 1/1250 check below)
First, take out the shutter out of the camera body(which you probably did already, if you're reading this and the upper drum axle fell out...). There are couple of covers on the lens side of the shutter. These need to be removed in order to get to the drums. Cover attaching to lens mount/helicoid is just removed by pulling it out, the other cover is held by 4 screws, which are easily visible. Cover can be easily removed when upper curtain is down.
Next thing is to take the axle out from upper drum (note that the ends are different, so memorize the position to insert it back correctly) and get the upper drum loose, so that both cogwheels - above (small coming from winding mechanism) and below the big main wheel for timing mechanism can be rotated freely.
Make sure that time is set to "B" and release the shutter by pressing the shutter release button. Turn the upmost small wheel back as far as it goes counterclockwise (looking from the curtain crate side of the shutter). This makes sure that the winding/cocking mechanism is in the shutter released position.
Next take the Maizenbergs book and check picture 324 a). Look the position of the wheel "13". Check as well picture 325 a). This is how your shutter should look like uncocked, time set to "B". Turn the big main cogwheel to get it to match with picture 324 a). I see 2 options, either you tape the big wheel in correct position or you estimate by trial-and-error the movement of big cog wheel which takes place when you insert the upper drum back in its correct place.
Insert the upper drum back in its correct place and secure it with the axle. Easiest way for me was to insert axle half-way - you could still move the cogwheel end of the drum as needed. Outcome should be that the small wheel from the winding mechanism should not be turned (not at least a lot) and your shutter should look like in pictures 324 a) and 325 a). This probably requires a few takes, but I did not feel it as difficult as I originally thought it would be.
A mistake I made was that I rolled upper curtain too tight on the drum while inserting it back in place. This resulted that curtains would not lock properly, since upper curtain became "too short". So do not roll the curtain to the drum, for me the success was when it was not real tight, but a bit loose, but just a little bit.
When done and upper drum is back in place it should be possible to cock the shutter and fire it. Before doing it note, that if you have not yet inserted back the metal cover covering the drums you're missing the other "hook" which will separate the curtains from each other. So using very gentle touch (e.g. with small screwdriver) make sure that the curtains will get detached in the correct phase when cocking the shutter. Or just install the metal cover back, but you might need to take it off again (look below)
In order to check whether you managed to get the synch in place set the time to 1/1250 and cock the shutter. Check picture 327. There should be 6-7 teeth visible in the thicker part of the big cogwheel before the drum cogwheel. There should as well be 1,5-2 curtain slats visible as in picture 328. If that is the case, my understanding is that then you got it synched perfectly. If not, then time back to "B", axle out and redo the procedure above. Make sure that the topmost cogwheel is as well rolled back to shutter uncocked position, otherwise it is impossible to cock the shutter. With a few trial and errors it is possible to get the sync correct. Or if you're skilled Zeiss/Kiev technician, just do the whole synching as in pictures 327 and 328. Shutter cocked, time set to 1/1250 and upper curtain rolled just the right amount to the upper drum. I tried, did not manage to do it
When done build back the metal covers and put the shutter back to the camera and go shooting...As said, that's how I revived my Kiev, but still no guarantees on the procedure above. If someone feels that there is something terribly wrong please shout it out loud. And before messing with the shutter it is worth reading all the info you can get. Be careful not to bend anything and not to get the small springs detached. When firing the shutter when off-the-camera I use very gentle braking with my fingers on the curtains from film side of the shutter to emulate the cover which normally is in place on the film side of the shutter. If you do not have anything in place to keep the curtains against the shutter, the curtains can overlap etc. all kind of weird things can happen.
Google translator translates Russian suprisingly nicely from Maizenberg's book. It is possible to get the basic understanding. And as said, the correct method according to the book would be to use 1/10 time or 1/1250 time, still I did it with "B". The pictures referred above contain illustrations for multiple shutter times so they are really useful to check that shutter is set correctly.
Grytpype
Well-known
Well done - and thanks for the description! Maizenberg is very useful indeed. His decription of where the various escapement cams and levers should be at each speed saves a lot of headaches when re-assembling one of these cameras.
Steve.
Steve.