Kiev IV + tripod & parallax problem ... ?

[bolas]

Hello,
I just developed my first film at night. I was using Kiev IV with 35 mm Jupiter-12. Camera was mounted on the tripod, i've been also using a shutter wire. I really like the effects but there is also a big problem. Almost all photos made from the tripod are out of the original planned frame 😱

I am a bit surprised cause my universal viewfinder was set to the infinty, and the sights were mostly architecture away from the camera so there should not be any problems. In fact i never had any problems like this when i was holding camera in hands.

Any idea what happend ? Well i hope i didn't forget anything. Camera was set correctly, everything was mounted on the tripod like it should be, the frame view was cheked with universal viewfinder, viefinder was set to the infinity ... so why pics are not correct ? 😕

Every horizontal photo is cut on the upper edge, and every vertical one is moved to the right from the intended position ... :bang:

My universal viewfinder is not exactly a Kiev model, but till now there was no problems with it. Its from Zorkij i believe ...

Photos:

 

[spiderfrank]

first af all: beautiful shots!! 😀
next...
i cannot imagine how a tripod could cause this problem: I use the same multi-focal viewfinder when I put the Jupiter-12 on my Kiev, and like I you never had problems shooting handheld. The only thing I can suppose is a movement of the tripod, when you leave it to shot, but this is really strange and couldn't justify the lateral frame problem in the vertical shots.
Sorry, no help fro me, only congratulations for the photos... Come back there and re-try!

Franco

 

[Nickfed]

Well, at least you have the exposure well sorted.

Clearly, when working at that distance, something more fundamental than parallax is going on. You don't say what happens when you swing the camera over to portrait orientation. I think you should take the back off, tape a piece of tracing paper over the film gate and compare the image with what you see in the finder. The turret finder is surely the problem. If there was a tilt in the lens you would surely be aware of it.

 

[julio1fer]

Most likely the turret viewfinder has play i.e. it does not seat tightly in the accessory shoe. Put the finder in the shoe and check.

Solution: padding it with a thin rubber sheet in the base, or laterally with a thin piece of plastic. Or, deforming the accessory shoe to make the VF fit tightly.

 

[bolas]

first af all: beautiful shots!! 😀
next...
i cannot imagine how a tripod could cause this problem: I use the same multi-focal viewfinder when I put the Jupiter-12 on my Kiev, and like I you never had problems shooting handheld. The only thing I can suppose is a movement of the tripod, when you leave it to shot, but this is really strange and couldn't justify the lateral frame problem in the vertical shots.
Sorry, no help fro me, only congratulations for the photos... Come back there and re-try!

Franco

That's why i am asking... 😉
The only idea for me is that i have to missed setting of the viewfinder ... or maybe i just accidentaly reset it it to "1m" and did not notice that ... ? Or maybe something was wrong mounted on the tripod ? 😕

Too low ... top is cut.

Moved to the right ...

 

[bolas]

Most likely the turret viewfinder has play i.e. it does not seat tightly in the accessory shoe. Put the finder in the shoe and check.

Solution: padding it with a thin rubber sheet in the base, or laterally with a thin piece of plastic. Or, deforming the accessory shoe to make the VF fit tightly.

Like i said - problem doesnt exists when i am shooting with a camera hold in hands ...with the same viewfinder, same lens ... everything seems to be as it was planned.

Sample:

 

[rbiemer]

Is the film tracking correctly in the camera? Maybe the take up spool is loose or low--that would account for the top of the image( which is at the bottom of the camera) being cut off. Does this happen when you are using the camera VF?
Rob

 

[bolas]

Is the film tracking correctly in the camera? Maybe the take up spool is loose or low--that would account for the top of the image( which is at the bottom of the camera) being cut off. Does this happen when you are using the camera VF?
Rob

Same as in my previous post ... everything worked perfect until i mounted camera on the tripod. When i was shooting pics holding camera in my hands they were OK - at least there were no problems with framing, tracking, rolling etc ...

That's why i was really surprised when i saw the results of pics from the tripod. In fact on the same film i have proper images made from hand. Nothing distrubing with them. Those two photos (with my friends) presented in a post before were made just few days before - it's the same film, same J-12 and same VF.

I have no idea what goes wrong when i mounted it on tripod... 🙂 😕

 

[Spyderman]

Most likely the turret viewfinder has play i.e. it does not seat tightly in the accessory shoe. Put the finder in the shoe and check.

Solution: padding it with a thin rubber sheet in the base, or laterally with a thin piece of plastic. Or, deforming the accessory shoe to make the VF fit tightly.

What is the difference between whenyou shoot handheld and on tripod ? Do you touch the Turret VF with oyur forehead when you use it ? If yes, it could be that the VF is then slightly slanted and shows correct view.

My advice: learn to compensate.

 

[rbiemer]

bolas,
While I was slowly typing my post you had already posted those photos. So, I would next suspect that the finder has some problem. If you can try another finder that might answer the question. And Ondrej's post may also help in figuring this out.
One other thing, I would put the camera on the tripod and use a 50mm lens and the camera VF and shoot some photos. Try to shoot them just as you did these and then see if they are OK. If they are, then that would lead me to suspect the turret finder. Beyond using another one I'm not sure what the fix would be.
Rob

 

[Rhodes]

Love the pictures! Hope one day I can do the same. What film do You used?

 

[bolas]

Thanks for answers and a piece of advice 😉
I think i will try with second film ... maybe it was just a misfortune ?
Second idea i have - maybe the frame is so bad because i kept my eye too far away from the viewer, or maybe i was checking view with bad angle too far away from the VF ?

Film was: Kodak ProFoto 400BW

 

[gb hill]

I have had the same problem when using the camera hand held using external finders shooting horizontally. Happened using my Bessa L with 25/4. I chocked it down to the distance I was from the subject. Happened again with a Canon 135 on my Fed 2. I had the finder & lens both lined up at same distance. My subject was way off center when I saw the prints. I haven't tried it since. I should, it's a beautiful lens.

 

[uhligfd]

How do you take vertical shots hand-held? Viewfinder on left or right? How do you take vertical pictures on tripod? viewfinder on left or right. Maybe there is the difference.

 

[ZeissFan]

It's a bit difficult to know how much out of the frame a photo is when there is no way of knowing what your original framing was to be. You know what I mean? Because looking at the photos, I don't see anything wrong with the composition.

It would be like me handing you a photo and saying that the framing is off. You would have no idea if it was off an inch or a foot.

Are they off to the left, right, top or bottom? Or a combination? And how severely is it off?

I would tend to agree that it's probably the turret finder. These are faithful copies of the Zeiss Ikon finders and use prisms. It's possible that a prism or a mask has shifted slightly, which wouldn't be apparent to the naked idea but would have an effect on a carefully framed image.

You could try to disassemble it and reseat the prisms and the mask. That might solve it, or it might make it worse.

I think the proper method would be to fix it to a camera on a tripod, note the framing. Then disassemble while it's still on the camera and without moving either the camera or tripod out of position. Then reseat the prisms and mask, reassemble and check the framing again.

In fact, the more I think about it, the more I think that it would be best done on some type of bench with the camera attached to a tripod mount in a vice or something very rigid.

Just thinking out loud here. ...

Finally, is the viewfinder properly seated in the accessory shoe? Does it wiggle? Fractional movement within the accessory shoe can affect the framing.

 

[bolas]

I take the tripod vertical shots same as handheld ... like on this picture below. From my perspective the VF is always on my left.

Like here:
http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/5306/30394527.jpg

I don't think this could be the solution ... cause other photos made without tripod looks OK to me ...:

Same film again. Vertical shots, hand-held ... 35 mm with VF set on infinity. Everything OK.

On the other hand here is a very good example of parallax error 😉 I forgot to reset my VF for "1m" preset and took some close perspective shots. As you can see the frame is stongly moved to the right ... 🙂 Just like in a school-book 😉 They were also shoot hand-held. Well ... as they say ... first you have to learn a lot to be proud of results 😉

 

[bolas]

It's a bit difficult to know how much out of the frame a photo is when there is no way of knowing what your original framing was to be. You know what I mean? Because looking at the photos, I don't see anything wrong with the composition.

It would be like me handing you a photo and saying that the framing is off. You would have no idea if it was off an inch or a foot.

Are they off to the left, right, top or bottom? Or a combination? And how severely is it off?

I would tend to agree that it's probably the turret finder. These are faithful copies of the Zeiss Ikon finders and use prisms. It's possible that a prism or a mask has shifted slightly, which wouldn't be apparent to the naked idea but would have an effect on a carefully framed image.

You could try to disassemble it and reseat the prisms and the mask. That might solve it, or it might make it worse.

I think the proper method would be to fix it to a camera on a tripod, note the framing. Then disassemble while it's still on the camera and without moving either the camera or tripod out of position. Then reseat the prisms and mask, reassemble and check the framing again.

In fact, the more I think about it, the more I think that it would be best done on some type of bench with the camera attached to a tripod mount in a vice or something very rigid.

Just thinking out loud here. ...

Finally, is the viewfinder properly seated in the accessory shoe? Does it wiggle? Fractional movement within the accessory shoe can affect the framing.

VF seats properly in my opinion. No wiggling, seats tight.

Sorry that i did not explain the framing problem with picture, here it is:

In my opinion the difference in real and intended frame is exactly the same as between setting the viewfinder on "1m" and "infinity".
So that's why i think it could be just my mistake ... well i think the best (and the cheapest) i can do is just load another film and try again carefully remembering and checking anything. I will share the results ... 😉

Btw. what do you think about photos (except bad framing) ? I really like this nigt J-12 performance ... 🙂

 

[spiderfrank]

there is only one sure thing: you didn't put the viewfinder at 1m: doing so, you should had the opposite parallax issue. The position of your eye seems to be the main "candidate" for the problem

 

[bolas]

there is only one sure thing: you didn't put the viewfinder at 1m: doing so, you should had the opposite parallax issue (...)

Hmmmm 🙄 ... are you sure ...?
I am looking through this VF right now and this is what can i see (almost) ...

Maybe i am imaging this in a bad way ... but it seems to me to be the same as with my pics. If i was shooting with "1m" instead of infinity "preset" my real frame was lower (in horizontal shots) or moved to the right (vertical pics) in compare to the intended frame. Am i wrong ? 🙂

 

[Ed S.]

From your description and post #17, it looks like somehow your camera is pointing down (relative to the bottom of the camera) by a small fixed amount.

But you write that this only happens on the tripod (with a rubber pad for the camera?), not when hand-held. This points to the lens image, RF wiew and turret view all agreeing.

Post #2 (Spiderfrank) might be on the right track.

Is it possible that you unconsciously compress the pad on your tripod slightly when you wind, aim and focus the camera? The mounting hole on the bottom of the camera is not centered (front-to-back) on the bottom of the camera, so compressing the rubber pad will end up exerting much more force on the camera from behind the mounting hole (pointing the lens down)).

I’m guessing that you have the camera securely mounted, but perhaps just beyond finger-tight, to avoid damage to the camera and hold it securely.

Perhaps removing the rubber pad from the tripod and using some thin felt instead, will cure the problem.