Kiev- unlucky cameras? (Or I'll just stick to FED or Zorki)

[ZorkiKat]

Bad fengshui? Cursed? what?

I never had good luck in keeping my Kiev RF in good working condition. Even when they are hardly used. I give them a short 'work out' every few weeks just to keep their shutters running. In the last 6 months, I had three Kiev RF break their shutter straps. That's now 6 broken Kiev (vintages didn't apply here- the 80's versions just broke sooner). I've only 2 working ones left.

The shutters broke when the cameras were being used for shooting. That seems to be the pattern with these cameras were in use. I would never trust a Kiev again.

My FED and Zorki have proven to be extremely reliable in this respect. And easier to fix too, given the simpler shutter mechanism and the easy to substitute shutter straps and blinds.

Jay

 

[mike goldberg]

Oh my, I'm sorry to hear this. I only had one Kiev, and sold it because of difficulty in changing speeds. The "lift-turn-drop into slot" action, did NOT work well in the direction of higher speeds. And yes, it was advanced and cocked every time.

As for Zorki, the finder and patch are excellent, however I found that lifting & turning that tiny shutter speed dial, murder on my fingers. A Fed-2c that was CLA'd by Oleg is a favorite shooter, with a very "Barnack-like" feel. BTW... with thanks to Jay, wolves3012 & spyderman for your support in fine-tuning RF adjustment in my Fed-2c. It was easy ;-)

Ciao
Mike

 

[ruben]

Hi Zorkikat,

I have a practical proposal. providede you can fix and overhaul a Fed 2, I will do the same for your Kiev.

If it is ok, in principle, we can continue talking by PM

Cheers,
Ruben

 

[ZorkiKat]

My adventure with Kievs

My adventure with Kievs

Hi Zorkikat,

I have a practical proposal. providede you can fix and overhaul a Fed 2, I will do the same for your Kiev.

If it is ok, in principle, we can continue talking by PM

Cheers,
Ruben

Thanks Ruben for the offer. But I do not see now the relevance of fixing any broken Kiev, given the experience I've had with them.

I got my first Kiev (model 4aM, 1984 vintage) in 1989. It had dials which were heavy and extremely difficult to set. It made very wide frame spacing during the short time it worked. The camera worked long enough only to expose two rolls.

It was a dozen years before I even considered getting one again. I got another one, a 1972 Kiev 4 which I thought worked. It didn't advance film when I got it. It actually went back to the Ukraine to be fixed, but the repairist got only as fixing the shutter, but not the film advance. I was sent another camera as compensation. I was able to resolve the film advance problem with the the '72 Kiev, and the replacement (a 1976 K4) soon broke its straps.

Then, I got another Kiev 4, another from 1976. It looked so new and fresh. But its rangefinder could not be calibrated to focus at 1 mtr. This too, soon broke its straps. I am using the Maizenberg book as reference for repairs.

I thought I hit it right when I got a 1952 K-2, 3 more K-4 from 1958, 1962, and 1968, and a 1980 K-4a. The older Kiev really had a smoother and lighter "feel" in them. I hardly used these cameras. And yet, they broke their straps just the same, usually when they were being used for shooting. First to go was the 1980 K-4a. The 1952 K-2 came next. The 1968 snapped while film was being loaded in it. And the 1972 K-4 mentioned above
broke its straps 3 days ago.

That leaves me with just two working Kiev. 6 broken ones which didn't even see much action. I've run perhaps an average of 3 rolls on each since I got them. In contrast, my Zorki-1 and FED-1 saw more action and rough use. None of these got their shutters broken. They always delivered the goods.

And BTW, what ills your FED-2?

Jay

 

[wolves3012]

Jay,

Although I've never done it, I don't think ribbon replacement is worse than (say) curtains in a FED or Zorki, something which you obviously have the skills to do. I think you have some bad luck with your Kievs, though. Although hardly a fair comparison, I can tell you that the Kiev 4 I inherited from my father did see considerable use in its early days and it didn't break the ribbons. I've only recently got my 4a so it's a bit early to say on reliability. That said, I've re-lubed it, so it runs quite smoothly and hopefully they'll last.

 

[ruben]

hi ZORKIKAT,

The most important ill of my two feds, is that I don't have the patience to start learning their quirks from the begining. With each new Kiev I fix I gain experience and dexterousity. For the Feds, I am lazy.

As for your Kievs, let my try to seduce you. The "deal" I am, or was, to detail via PM, was not just each of us do "a fix" but a full overhaul incl film testing. And not only a full overhaul, but each of us doing our best ever in every direction to provide the other with the best camera each of us is able to provide.

And all these within a framework of utmost friendship and good will.

Let life the opportunity to surprise you. What do you have to loose beyond free time and a bit of money for mailing and customs ?

Cheers,
Ruben

 

[Jocko]

I only had one Kiev, and sold it because of difficulty in changing speeds. The "lift-turn-drop into slot" action, did NOT work well in the direction of higher speeds.

Now he tells me! 😀

Hi Ruben,
That's a most interesting idea you have here. It's not alltogether unlike a recent offer you made with another group which was most regrettably missunderstood.

I made an interesting offer once, regrettably misunderstood by the Judge. And incidentally, Ruben, the FED 2 has no quirks - it just works 🙂

Cheers, Ian

 

[zhang xk]

I see the point. A camera mechnaic is interested in the design of the camera, while a photographer wants the most reliable camera. A Kiev or a Contax interests me for their complex design over Zorki or Leica which could be misunderstood that I prefer Kiev (Contax)to Zorki(Leica).
I am not saying a Kiev is an unreliable camera. Both type could last many years. It amuses me that with many times of production cost, ZI offered a product that performs about the same as the other.🙂 hehehe.

 

[zhang xk]

Hi Ian,

If one looks a Fed-2 a few more times, he may discover that the Fed-2 is the most elegant and practical design of all interchangeable rangefinder cameras.

I just find out the the Chinese girl with a camera is very nice after I looked the picture again closely.🙂

Cheers,

Zhang

 

[zhang xk]

I think maybe we just have a perception problem. Kiev, Feds, Zorki, LTM Leicas, these are all old cameras. The materials they were made from are really old now. While owners routinely have Leicas CLA'ed and repaired because of their perceived value, the poor Kievs are perceived as cheap, low value cameras, and not worth investing in maintainence and repair. Thus they break. And we all bitch and call them junk. 😉

I agree. While later Kievs are not finished as well, Kiev made in 1950-60's are still basically the same camera that cost about the same as an economy car in the 1930's, that in today's money could cost 4-5 K to produce.

 

[Jocko]

Hi Ian,

If one looks a Fed-2 a few more times, he may discover that the Fed-2 is the most elegant and practical design of all interchangeable rangefinder cameras.

I just find out the the Chinese girl with a camera is very nice after I looked the picture again closely.🙂

Hallo Zhang!
I naturally agree on both points! Indeed, I think it's interesting to compare the FED 2 with the contemporary Ilford Witness, a very exclusive British Leica "copy" which is often regarded as one off the most beautiful cameras ever made - http://website.lineone.net/~mauricefisher/Witness.html

I have always felt that the designers of both cameras were working on a very similar path - but in the case of the FED created a robust, low-cost masterpiece, in which design and function are perfectly matched.

With regard to the CLA issue, raised by Sitemistic, I have to say that avoiding maintenance on any old camera is always a complete false economy, . But, whilst the Kiev has exerted a constant fascination for more than 20 years, my experience is rather similar to Jay's and I believe the Leica and its derivatives are inherently more reliable due to mechanical simplicity and a greater resistance to mishandling. The last point seems to me particularly important. I strongly suspect that many Kiev troubles are ultimately due to the user (myself very definitely included) treating the camera as if it were a more conventional design.

Cheers, Ian

 

[ZorkiKat]

Kiev vs Contax II shutter repair

Kiev vs Contax II shutter repair

Jay,

Although I've never done it, I don't think ribbon replacement is worse than (say) curtains in a FED or Zorki, something which you obviously have the skills to do. I think you have some bad luck with your Kievs, though. Although hardly a fair comparison, I can tell you that the Kiev 4 I inherited from my father did see considerable use in its early days and it didn't break the ribbons. I've only recently got my 4a so it's a bit early to say on reliability. That said, I've re-lubed it, so it runs quite smoothly and hopefully they'll last.

Hi wolves

I've actually attempted strap replacement a few times. None successful due mostly to improper ribbon replacement material. I've used both Maizenberg's instructions and Rick Oleson's diagrams. Rick was kind enough to email me a few more instructions which aren't on his site.

Repairing the shutters in a FED or Zorki or even Zenit (at least those without slow speed mechanisms) I think is far easier. 🙂

Thanks to Rick, too, I was able to repair a Contax IIa whose shutter cord broke. The CIIa used cords instead of ribbons. The shutter mechanism is about the same, but not quite. I used silk surgical thread for the cord material replacement. The Contax IIa repair was simpler than any that I've done on a Kiev. One Contax IIa belonging to a friend is currently here for a similar repair work.

As it is, I see that it's the strap replacement material which makes makes repair impossible. I may perhaps buy a few metres of the material from alexphoto or else try one of the several 3mm ribbons I have bought for this purpose. There's still a 30 metre roll of ribbon material which I haven't tried yet. Or perhaps even get a replacement curtain for my Kiev 2 whose original blinds are already deformed.

Jay

 

[ZorkiKat]

hi ZORKIKAT,

The most important ill of my two feds, is that I don't have the patience to start learning their quirks from the begining. With each new Kiev I fix I gain experience and dexterousity. For the Feds, and I am lazy.

As for your Kievs, let my try to seduce you. The "deal" I am, or was, to detail via PM, was not just each of us do "a fix" but a full overhaul incl film testing. And not only a full overhaul, but each of us doing our best ever in every direction to provide the other with the best camera each of us is able to provide.

And all these within a framework of utmost friendship and good will.

Let life the opportunity to surprise you. What do you have to loose beyond free time and a bit of money for mailing and customs ?

Cheers,
Ruben

Hi Ruben

I think I should retain these Kiev in their current states. I see me doing actual work on their shutters (again) sometime, but not too soon. Perhaps when I'm done with the shutters of a clutch of broken FED-1 I bought (5 done, three to go), and a Contax IIa sent here last Christmas, there'd be opportunities for fixing the Kievs. 🙂

As for the FED-2, I don't see what sort of difficult quirks it could have. It has a lot in common with the Kiev, so a Kiev user should be able to use it as easily. Its long-base RF was inspired by the Contax/Kiev. Ditto with backs which slide off, knob winding, lift-and-set shutter dials, and combined-RF/VF viewing. Both cameras synch at 1/25 (30), but the FED-2 won't fire the flash when the shutter is wound. The only major difference between the two is that the FED-2's horizontal cloth shutter lacks 1/1000 and the slow speeds.

You can PM me about the FED or Zorki if you have some technical concerns about their operation. 🙂

Jay

 

[fidget]

My Kievs have me beat. The few that I have played with had light leak issues and shutter problems needing a simple CLA (about all I can do on these). After getting these little jobs sorted I'm left with frame spacing problems which seem difficult to correct.
This year I'm going to pass them on, sell up my Kiev kit and keep on with the Zorki/Fed rfs. It's not because I don't like to use them, just that I have only so much time to devote to fixing and testing which I feel is more rewarded in the FED/Zorki range. (Plus my "discovery" of vintage Voigtlanders has further split my time.....).


Dave...

 

[40oz]

I don't know what you guys are paying for your cameras, but that might explain the problems you are having.

 

[fidget]

I don't know what you guys are paying for your cameras, but that might explain the problems you are having.

That's a good point!
When buying FED/Zorki, I'm pleased when I can get a really good condition rig that hasn't been messed with. This tends to mean that those I find most appealing have probably never worked properly and have spent most of their life stored.
As I am happy to work on these and give them the CLA that they need, I can end up with a bargain.
This strategy does not work well with Kievs as I can't be confident that I can fix them, so not buying from a seller who has had them CLA'd is a risk for me that's not paid off.

Dave......

Buy yours CLA'd +G'tee.

 

[vrgard]

Wow, I'm surprised to read of everyone's Kiev woes. I have an early 1960's Kiev 4A and an early 1980's Kiev 4AM and neither have given me any trouble whatsoever. Don't mean to boast or question anyone else's experiences. I guess I've just been lucky and still find my Kievs to be very nice cameras.

-Randy

 

[40oz]

I think maybe we just have a perception problem. Kiev, Feds, Zorki, LTM Leicas, these are all old cameras. The materials they were made from are really old now. While owners routinely have Leicas CLA'ed and repaired because of their perceived value, the poor Kievs are perceived as cheap, low value cameras, and not worth investing in maintainence and repair. Thus they break. And we all bitch and call them junk. 😉

That's pretty much it right there.

 

[Spyderman]

Hi Jay,

I think your experience with Kievs must had been just bad luck. Kievs can be very reliable just as Ruben says.

The most important aspects of good working Kiev are:
- clean shutter mechanisms
- lubed advance gears
- minimum shutter tension

Failing to provide these conditions can cause the ribbons to break - because you are putting too much stress on them.

Even before I knew much about Kievs I had one dirty, dry and with high shutter tension. The ribbons broke after a couple shots...

The mechanisms must be clean - otherwise you're putting too much stress on the gears and ribbons.

Advance gears must be lubed - otherwise the advancing and shutter cocking is very rough.

Shutter spring tension must be as low as possible - otherwise it's causing stress on the ribbons and all gears.

All these are a "MUST".

But when you finally have a cleaned, lubed and low-tensioned Kiev, it's a great reliable camera. I believe even you can change your opinion on Kievs 😉


PS: do buy the ribbon material from alex-photo. Only original type of ribbon can work in Kiev's shutter.

 

[Dogman]

I've been lucky with Kievs--I have four and they all work fine. I didn't really expect them to work so well--I was facinated by the Contax/Kiev history and just wanted one for the conversation value. Funny how habit forming they've become and how much I enjoy shooting with them.