Kiev year of production vs. quality

[Spyderman]

About a week ago I've been on a vacation and in a small used camera store I bought me a nice Kiev 4 from 1971 (still leather covering and the old style self-timer).

Right now I'm working on its "intestines" 😀
What I noticed right from the beginning (and much more at diassembly process) is, that this camera seems to be MUCH better assembled than my 2 later 1975 Kiev 4a's. Every screw was really easy to unscrew, everything went apart easier...

There must be something about the early Kievs... And if the 50's Kiev 2 and 3's are that much better than the Kiev-4's, then I'm sure they are worth every cent they cost.

What is your experience with Kiev "quality" (smoothness, loudness, reliability, feel) versus the year it was manufactured?


edit: another thing I noticed is that the shutter mechanism was full of dirt and film chips, but still worked smoother than my other 2 Kievs... I hope after cleaning it will be even better...

 

[TVphotog]

My 73 is a nice camera. The shutter was nice and smooth until the ribbons gave way. The 63 shutter that I replaced it with is just as smooth, but a bit harder to switch speeds as you get to the slower ones. I have a 56, but it was in terrible shape when I got it and is in the middle of a complete tear down and repaint. I have a '50 coming and will give a full report when it arrives.

 

[brachal]

I have a '55 or '56 Kiev2a that is superb. Operation is very, very smooth. I also have a mid 70's 4a, that isn't too bad, but it's not in the same league as the 2a. I haven't taken either one apart, but just using them the difference in quality is apparent.

The build of the 2a is, in my mind, very close to what I'd expect from a vintage Leica or Nikon. Maybe not quite that good, but close to it.

 

[rxmd]

I'm waiting to get my 1949 Kiev back from repairs, then we can talk 🙂

My other Kiev is a 1984 4AM, and while certainly not a champion of build quality, it's not a bad camera either. I guess there was some variation even then.

Incidentally, what happened to the "Pass the RF" FED?

 

[ruben]

Hi Ondrej,
I think that kiev 1971 is an off spring of the good decade of the sixties, from which I like to crop my samples.

I have had a bad experience with a 56 Fedka 2a, as daily shooter. Fedka was not guilty, but the camera started to extinguish. Nevertheless I have not passed these decade cameras under my treatment, so I have no practical experience of real value. The same with Kievs from the seventies.

I have not yet surgered cameras from the sixties, but after buying some 4 of them, i must say that they come in quite satisfactory condition, making them a real bargain for around $50. Not perfect, but very good relative condition. Seems as the most simple to fix.

But I have treated 4am's and the situation here is controversial. You really see there outside and inside, cheapened parts and endemic misadjusting (which you can fix), mixed with a more functional design provided by the winding knob, giving you the posibility to clearly read speed from avobe, then the rewind knob and the hot shoe. These cameras cannot but remember me Gorbatchev. Right now I have finnished my first "prototype" of advanced quality, which I will be daily carrying and see how long it lasts.

Right from DVD these cameras came fully working, but in somewhat crude way. Black versions near the hundred dollars.

The winding knob of the 4am, and all what it is beyond, can be softened almost like previous models, yet not to the same level. But the difference is more for collectors than for users. For us it can be softened for more than we need. Yet the last stage of the winding, when the curtains rise, the feeling of the knob is like those old table clocks when you winded their gear. But again this is very very negligible.

I have heavily invested in the Kievs 4am, to change their front plates into black ones, painting, puting those old chromed self timer buttons, changing the re-wind knob into those of the Olympus RD ($15 each) and the oldest Kiev cases which suit the 4am as a glove.

So far what I know.
Cheers,
Ruben

 

[zhang xk]

IMHO, 70's Kievs are still worth every penny of the $50 or so price, but a nice early Kiev is an even better deal. Those 60's Kiev 4s are the same precision top grade cameras such as Contax 3A. Kiev price was reduced from RMB1,250 for early version to RMB 600+ for later ones in China in1970's. So I guess They were not sold at the same price when new in USSR. I remember their prices were printed on some instruction manuals. They were much more expensive than a Zorki 4 or Fed 3 when new. all my early Kievs are better finished, and are very smooth except that there seems a quality drop for 1954's Kiev 2s. The numbers are not as well engraved as other early Kievs.😀

 

[Spyderman]

I know it's generally known that earlier Kievs are of higher quality andbetter finish, but I meant to say, that it surprised me, that within 4 years (1971-1975) the manufacturing standard could drop so much! This '71 Kiev was much much better finished than the 2 from '75.

I think I'm gonna find the earliest Kiev 4a... (yes 4 - because I don't like the bottom locks on 2 and 3 🙄)

 

[Jocko]

I know it's generally known that earlier Kievs are of higher quality andbetter finish, but I meant to say, that it surprised me, that within 4 years (1971-1975) the manufacturing standard could drop so much! This '71 Kiev was much much better finished than the 2 from '75.

I think I'm gonna find the earliest Kiev 4a... (yes 4 - because I don't like the bottom locks on 2 and 3 🙄)

I've read an interesting suggestion that in the first years of the 70s the original Zeiss-trained staff from the 40s had either reached retirement age or been promoted off the shop-floor and into other sections of the Arsenal works, thus changing the skills base and working culture of the RF production line.

Cheers, Ian

 

[rick oleson]

I have two Kievs, a 1963 '4' and a 1984 '4am'. The 1963 is certainly more nicely finshed, but the 1984 is every bit as good for a user. I have heard that there were serious quality problems around 1980 or so, don't have any way to prove that.... and I have seen one 4AM with gears so loose that it couldn't be made to work (don't recall the serial number on that one).

 

[ruben]

Let's not forget, that we are talking about manual cameras from 30 and more years ago. There is the previous users factor here, more than in an semiautomatic camera, because the how do you use or abuse or refix or dis-fix plays an important role too.

We all know that from time to time some of us have gotten the miracle of getting a Kiev in pristine virgin state and then...heaven itself.

Finnally take notice that upon looking at eBay Kievs, I cannot but notice that a high process of canibalization is taking place, specially regarding the models 2a.

Cheers,
Ruben

 

[darkkavenger]

Hello Ruben, could you elaborate about what you mean by "cannibalization" ? I can't grab the meaning correctly (my english is sometimes not sufficient enough)

Thanks & cheers!
max

 

[zhang xk]

Let's not forget, that we are talking about manual cameras from 30 and more years ago. There is the previous users factor here, more than in an semiautomatic camera, because the how do you use or abuse or refix or dis-fix plays an important role too.

We all know that from time to time some of us have gotten the miracle of getting a Kiev in pristine virgin state and then...heaven itself.

Finnally take notice that upon looking at eBay Kievs, I cannot but notice that a high process of canibalization is taking place, specially regarding the models 2a.

Cheers,
Ruben

Hello Ruben,

Do you mean some 2as are faked with 4as?

Cheers,

Zhang

 

[ruben]

Make a simple search for "Kiev 2a" at eBay. The exterior will tell something about the interior.

I am not talking about faking, but mixing some parts in order to have by whatever means a 2a for sale. This is how I understand the term canibalization within photography gear context.

Cheers,
Ruben

 

[darkkavenger]

Now I see what you mean Ruben, weird enough to see a 2a with self-timer from waaay newer camera, and I guess that is not all... I would rely only on trustable sellers -or better- buy from known local shops.

 

[ruben]

Hi Max,
In my opinion it is not that easy. The problem of problems seems to be the relative fast decay in peoples income, creating all sorts of problems starting with the poor man selling his Kiev there and so on. Some countries are "used", so to speak, to live in poverty for decades or centuries, but when a sudden decay in the level of incomes happens - this is a totally caotic situation, generating the worst. I have seen this in Argentina at the time.

So the basic situation seems to be one of desperation, and hence our eBay Kievs come.

So I repeat once again, the real price of an eBay Kiev is the camera plus additional CLA, which I would be interested to know about its possibilities in Europe.

Cheers,
Ruben

PS
No need to say that I write this with my strongest symphaty towards the FSU peoples, and I do not extend here in order not to go beyond from what affects our Kievs.

 

[darkkavenger]

many possibilities in Prague & czech republic, i bought more than a dozen nice kievs there, old ones in good cond, even found a '51 J3 in perfect shape. exc. the shortt msg, i'm biking home 😉

 

[ruben]

This makes sense. Yet from a short stay in Prague I remember several photo stores full of Pentacons and others, but at quite high prices. May be it was due to the center locations I walked through.

But if you happen to know a respectable shop with reasonable prices, then perhaps we all can establish some type of contact for buying and shipping.

Cheers,
Ruben

 

[nzeeman]

in serbia on photo fairs kievs can be easily found for around 10 euro. but not very early ones - mostly from 60s and 70s. and they are usually in pretty good shape.
(OT yesterday on photo fairs i saw contax II with sonnar 1.5 for only 100 euros 🙁 i was happy and sad in same time - great price but no money)

 

[darkkavenger]

Hi Ruben, unfortunately I moved away from Prague (most stupid decision in my life???) and am now living in French Riviera and searching for a job ... and maybe thinking of returning in Prague to work and live... I'll see as time goes by.

Nevertheless, it's true that Pentacon Six are at high prices (esp. on fotoskoda), but quality is unparallelled for me. I own a PSix body that I sent to Pentacon Dresden (sort of "Zeiss-Ikon" heir) for full revision, it performs smoothly, and with its Sonnar 180/2.8, it's my ultimate 6x6 system.

I've noticed an increase in Kiev prices but only in Fotoskoda, maybe because they keep an eye on ebay prices. I bought my 2a there for about 50 euros 2 years ago. I bought in Jan Pazdera several kievs at lower prices, but you have to check them thoroughly, same for the small shop located near Betlemské Namesti (it's sharing entrance with a jewellery). I saw there a Contax II for 4600 CZK (about 120 euro).

good luck to you all 🙂

 

[varjag]

I agree that after early 70s the build quality dropped sharply, and the later the worse it gets. From appearance of insides of my 80s 4am it seems they used a hammer to fit shutter crate into the casting.