David Murphy
Veteran
Roger,
Correction: Europeans demonstrably employ the power of the state to force others to help their "fellow man". I'm not a man of the cloth, but I think the Bible teaches one to do this a bit more directly. By the way, while I'm certainly glad Frances has recovered well, I've had several friends and relatives here with breast cancer, who've also survived (or lived for many years after diagnosis), and done so without financial crisis (including recently my younger sister). Not to pry into your personal life, but I could suppose a factor in your wife's decision to live in France has to do with being with you - spousal commitments often transcend nationalism.
Also, I think the usual path to avoiding hell is called confession, not the gain or loss of riches.
-- David
David Murphy
Veteran
Rob,
OK I'm ready to move on. Roger, I love your writings and photography too much to get into an extended political row with you, so I've said my piece.
- David
OK I'm ready to move on. Roger, I love your writings and photography too much to get into an extended political row with you, so I've said my piece.
- David
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Dear David,
[Post as first written deleted: as you say, there is probably little profit in this for either of us]
Cheers,
R.
[Post as first written deleted: as you say, there is probably little profit in this for either of us]
Cheers,
R.
Olsen
Well-known
... but...
The strong thing about it is that it is 'public'. Which means that all these issues can be corrected through good political and administrational hand craft. In an open an 'public' process. If it had been private, you would not be told about it's failings because this information is 'secret private property', belonging to an industry that profits on other's misfortunes. That's a hell of a difference. I wish the people of Massachusetts good luck with their public health care.
Olsen
Well-known
So does just every state on this earth that I know of.
Paying other people's health care expenses isn't that bad when you think of that they are paying yours when you need it. It is far worse that the US government saves the shareholders of some ill run banks by sending the bill to three or four future generations of Americans.
That's socialism for the few!
David Murphy
Veteran
Can't disagree with that - all these broken banks needed to fail
Olsen
Well-known
Roger,
I might have told about my American neighbours here in Oslo. He is an architect, she a medical doctor (specialist in geriatrics). They have lived here since early 80' and are members of the lavish Norwegian pension system, which, as they say, 'makes it impossible to move home'. The Norwegian health care, old care and pension systems are simply too lavish compared to what they could get back home. Through them I have got to know a growing community of Americans that has come to stay. Mostly ex employees of American multi national companies.
That does not mean that they think everything is a paradise here. Our neighbour the doctor is in the middle of a reorganisation within one of the largest hospitals here in Oslo, and has a lot of critical comments about this, which she shares with us. But as she says; 'had I been working for an American health care company I would not been allowed to tell anyone..'
I might have told about my American neighbours here in Oslo. He is an architect, she a medical doctor (specialist in geriatrics). They have lived here since early 80' and are members of the lavish Norwegian pension system, which, as they say, 'makes it impossible to move home'. The Norwegian health care, old care and pension systems are simply too lavish compared to what they could get back home. Through them I have got to know a growing community of Americans that has come to stay. Mostly ex employees of American multi national companies.
That does not mean that they think everything is a paradise here. Our neighbour the doctor is in the middle of a reorganisation within one of the largest hospitals here in Oslo, and has a lot of critical comments about this, which she shares with us. But as she says; 'had I been working for an American health care company I would not been allowed to tell anyone..'
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Dear Olsen,
That's the thing. Nothing's perfect. I get a bit pissed off with anyone, of any political persuasion, who thinks theirs is the One True Path. The same goes for religious persuasions, too.
It often seems quite easy to me, though, to look at two imperfect systems of which I have direct experience, then choose the better (or less worse).
Cheers,
R.
Olsen
Well-known
Came to think of it....
My American neighbours are off to Dallas, Texas, this weekend. To play golf. - Wish I was there. Here in Oslo it is 3 degrees C with wind and rain....
My American neighbours are off to Dallas, Texas, this weekend. To play golf. - Wish I was there. Here in Oslo it is 3 degrees C with wind and rain....
Spoks
Well-known
It is easy for Olsen to sit here and brag about how good things are here in Norway. He is in the upper middle class with two homes, two (or is it three?) cars, owns a large forest property in Sweden etc.
I am unemployed. I can confirm much of what he is bragging about. Our social programs are good, but he forgets how expensive everything here is. Take cars. More than twice the price compared to USA. Petrol, four times, booze, three times, sigarettes, five times. A McDonalds cheeseburger costs $3,60 here in Oslo, right now.
Worst is still real estate prices. Even though I get more than 40.000 $ in unemployment pay from the government I can't afford to live in my newly bought apartment. I have to sell it and find something cheaper. Does this sound familiar for Americans...?
I passed this suzhi restaurant that Olsen bragged about having lunch at here in Oslo. How about a $ 120 lunch, folks? Olsen had walked home, he said. I just walked away...
I am unemployed. I can confirm much of what he is bragging about. Our social programs are good, but he forgets how expensive everything here is. Take cars. More than twice the price compared to USA. Petrol, four times, booze, three times, sigarettes, five times. A McDonalds cheeseburger costs $3,60 here in Oslo, right now.
Worst is still real estate prices. Even though I get more than 40.000 $ in unemployment pay from the government I can't afford to live in my newly bought apartment. I have to sell it and find something cheaper. Does this sound familiar for Americans...?
I passed this suzhi restaurant that Olsen bragged about having lunch at here in Oslo. How about a $ 120 lunch, folks? Olsen had walked home, he said. I just walked away...
Olsen
Well-known
Spoks,
I can't comment on my private economy other than that we have two cars; my wife have one and I have one.
But I think it is most unfortunate that you are unemployed. I hope that it is not for long. Contrary to the rest of the world, real estate prices here in Oslo are still increasing. Which is simply unbelievable. If you have to sell you will not be caught in a trap were the mortgage is larger than the sales price of your flat.
Otherwise, I have to agree with you that prices and cost of living is high here in Norway. As my neighbour say; 'it's for members only!'.
I can't comment on my private economy other than that we have two cars; my wife have one and I have one.
But I think it is most unfortunate that you are unemployed. I hope that it is not for long. Contrary to the rest of the world, real estate prices here in Oslo are still increasing. Which is simply unbelievable. If you have to sell you will not be caught in a trap were the mortgage is larger than the sales price of your flat.
Otherwise, I have to agree with you that prices and cost of living is high here in Norway. As my neighbour say; 'it's for members only!'.
bmattock
Veteran
I don't know the answer to those questions; I'll grant you they are good ones. But if they are in fact extra-constitutional excesses, then that is what they are. That they exist does not excuse more of them. People run stop signs, too. That doesn't mean I am going to shrug and state that running stop signs must therefore be OK.
The Framers knew that times would change, and that the needs of the people would change; even that what they wanted out of their government would change. To support such changes, they provided a method, constitutional amendment. It is difficult; by design. It prevents the country from whipping back and forth from piller to post as the zeitgeist changes, because the bar to change is so high. However, in every case where the cause was deemed just enough by the people, such an amendment has been made. That route is available now. If we lack sufficient will to achieve it, then it is by 'intelligent design' (if you will pardon the pun) that such change not happen at this time.
There is nothing like a direct insult to really get someone to see your way of thinking, eh? I know, I've done it myself, far too often. Seeing this reminds me of the error of my own ways.
bmattock
Veteran
Roger, I'm sure you're aware that capitalism is not a political system, whilst communism is. Our own Alexander Hamilton was quite in favor of a strong central government, with rule directed from the top and the states abrogated to supporting positions. He was still a capitalist.
As I know you have visited China, you know as well as I do that they've been experiencing 7% growth in their GDP year-on-year for well over a decade now, with only a slight hiccup during the recent global economic meltdown. They are tied to the USA in a way that they may now find alarming, but their economic engine is indeed a capitalist model, regardless of their central control of the social parameters of their system.
bmattock
Veteran
One might note that I seldom (I don't think ever) criticize the European or UK model for health care, their system of governance, their tax structure, or how they choose to live their lives in general. I may tease or joke about them, but in general, it's not my business, and I just don't care.
For some reason, there are many who live outside the USA and are not just interested, but believe they have a right to have their opinions heard with regard to how the USA conducts its business and treats its citizens.
I have stated on many occasions that in my opinion, the USA and the rest of the world are fundamentally different. We do think differently, we hold different concepts dear - even from our neighbors in Canada and Mexico. We know that the rest of the world doesn't 'get us' and although our government has at times made a hash out of trying to make others be like us, in general, we citizens don't want others to be more like us, nor do we want to be more like them. We are different. We're going to stay different. Not sure why that's a problem for so many outside the US (and some few within it).
The French used to say 'viva la difference' or words to that effect, did they not? Now it's "why can't you be more like us?"
Olsen
Well-known
What strikes me every time I go to USA and meet ordinary Americans, is how equal we are. In attitudes and 'values'. The only reason I can see that you don't have a health care system for all, like most of the world, is that your politicians have been all corrupted by the huge health care industry.
bmattock
Veteran
Then you are not meeting the people who comprise those who do not want a government-run health care scheme in the USA. We are the minority by a relatively slim margin, and from time to time, we are the majority viewpoint here.
In any case, the question still remains. In what way is it your problem or concern?
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Dear Bill,
I have already expressed the opinion that the American people are not too stupid and ill-informed to hold a constitutional convention, and that those who say they are too stupid and ill-informed to do so are therefore insulting them. I therefore cheerfully direct my insult to those who insult the American people.
Cheers,
R.
Spoks
Well-known
We have the same problem in Norway with an all too old Constitution. And it's too difficult to change. It demands two third majority at two consecutive parliaments, which is reckoned as being "impossible" for such a heavy political issue as a Constitution. But we are discussing it.
Our next constitution will:
Incorporate the Declaration of Human Rights.
Manifest the right to work, a home and to food.
Manifest the right to a public pension system which is based on performance. Not dependant on the Stock Exchange. Regulate how much of the tax income that has to be put aside for future pension plans. Regulate that we will not participate in any wars unless it is sanctioned by the UN. Regulate that we cannot print up our own currency to prevent excess inflation. - Or open for the possibility to join other currencies (like the Euro). Regulate that party nominations is an election open to all party members. Modernise the protection of the individual in the modern information society. Better protection of journalists and their sources. And so on... And finally have a 50 year expire date. Within this time, there has to be made a new one.
Our next constitution will:
Incorporate the Declaration of Human Rights.
Manifest the right to work, a home and to food.
Manifest the right to a public pension system which is based on performance. Not dependant on the Stock Exchange. Regulate how much of the tax income that has to be put aside for future pension plans. Regulate that we will not participate in any wars unless it is sanctioned by the UN. Regulate that we cannot print up our own currency to prevent excess inflation. - Or open for the possibility to join other currencies (like the Euro). Regulate that party nominations is an election open to all party members. Modernise the protection of the individual in the modern information society. Better protection of journalists and their sources. And so on... And finally have a 50 year expire date. Within this time, there has to be made a new one.
Walt G
-
If I may step in here. Not everybody considers America as an entity any different from the rest of the world.
Some non Americans can feel for those who suffer from the lack of American health care just as we feel for those suffering and starving in Africa, Asia or any place else.
Human compassion doesn't stop at political borders.
bmattock
Veteran
My apologies, then. I really didn't extract that meaning from your statement. I must have conflated that with your statement regarding the ultra-right-wing knuckleheaded comments you said were bubbled to the top of Google searches for constitutional conventions.
I've had my coffee, so I have nothing to blame. You are aware, I trust, that we've never actually had a constitutional convention since (as I recall) 1787, right?
I have earlier stated that if we were to decide to a) pass an amendment marking health care as a basic civil liberty and b) scrap our entire health insurance industry and rebuild it from the ground up as a nationalized system of health care, I'd be fine with that. My major objection is with the current proposal - applying a Massachusetts-style patch to what we have now, which doesn't work in Massachusetts and won't work on a national level either.
I am bothered by those in favor of the current proposals who say "What we need to do is go to a single-payer system," when that proposal is NOT on the table and won't be in this session of Congress. They favor what they claim is a single-payer system but clearly isn't, indicating that they're paying no attention whatsoever to the current bills before Congress. Their intentions may be good, but if they haven't actually paid attention to what the bills before Congress are, I must conclude they're rather stupid (yes, that was insulting, but only towards those who think the current proposals are single-payer or even a step in that direction).