Fedzilla_Bob
man with cat
What are the differences between regular and professional Kodachrome?
I doubt that I would notice the differences initially. Just want to learn more.
I doubt that I would notice the differences initially. Just want to learn more.
dmr
Registered Abuser
Fedzilla_Bob said:
Uh, the "professional" costs more.
Seriously, I and a co-worker are splitting an order of several rolls of Kodachrome 64, and we were wondering that the other day. Nobody around here seemed to know.
I do want to shoot some of it again before it goes bibi for good.
Honu-Hugger
Well-known
My late uncle was an executive with Kodak; he explained this to me years ago and I have forgotten the details, but basically has to do with availability/control of the dye lots for repeatable results in careful color work and with the maturation process of the dyes. Color film is considered "green" before its expiration date, reaches peak performance at the expiration date, and can decline from there if not refrigerated or frozen. That's the gist of my bad memory -- someone else can weigh in and correct all the points I missed .
P. S. Formula is the same for "Pro" and consumer films. Pro film is usually stored refrigerated at most shops.
.P. S. Formula is the same for "Pro" and consumer films. Pro film is usually stored refrigerated at most shops.
Fedzilla_Bob
man with cat
Got it. They carry Kodachrome at the Savon drug store chains here. I intend to shoot some this summer.
We have great light here in SoCal. Yesterday was a perfect "shadowless" day. My current job (which will change very soon) is near Del Mar Beach. We get a cloud cover in the morning that is sometimes like being under a light dome, bright and diffuse with light, soft shadows. You still need sunglasses. We call it the marine layer.
My next job is downtown, which will be cool. Lots of people walking about. I have worked out in the suburbs for too long.
Both situations might be nice when shot in Kodachrome.
We have great light here in SoCal. Yesterday was a perfect "shadowless" day. My current job (which will change very soon) is near Del Mar Beach. We get a cloud cover in the morning that is sometimes like being under a light dome, bright and diffuse with light, soft shadows. You still need sunglasses. We call it the marine layer.
My next job is downtown, which will be cool. Lots of people walking about. I have worked out in the suburbs for too long.
Both situations might be nice when shot in Kodachrome.
Honu-Hugger
Well-known
An example my uncle used to help me nderstand was in commercial advertising (pre PhotoShop ) where a working pro is going to initially be extremely careful and concerned with color balance and color temperature during the shoot, but then to replicate those results at a later date it becomes easier working with film from the same dye lot. My uncle assured me I could never tell the difference with normal daylight shooting -- too many variables, but I still bought "Pro" film anyway. What can I say? It made me feel like a "Pro"!!!
) where a working pro is going to initially be extremely careful and concerned with color balance and color temperature during the shoot, but then to replicate those results at a later date it becomes easier working with film from the same dye lot. My uncle assured me I could never tell the difference with normal daylight shooting -- too many variables, but I still bought "Pro" film anyway. What can I say? It made me feel like a "Pro"!!! Roger Hicks
Veteran
Honu-Hugger (and his uncle) are spot on. I used 'pro' films when I was shooting in a London advertising studio and still use it occasionally when colour matching under controlled lighting is critical. Otherwise, as long as the film hasn't been sitting in a beach kiosk at 38C/100F for weeks, any 'amateur' film is fine. See also www.rogerandfrances.com -- I must address it somewhere though I don't recall where. I know it's in some of my books.
Cheers
Roger
Cheers
Roger
phototone
Well-known
Fedzilla_Bob said:
Professional color film stocks are aged at the manufacturer to be at optimum color balance, then shipped and stored refrigerated to maintain that balance until sold. Therefore the professional gets a product that is quaranteed to be within certain tolerances in regards color balance. Even if a professional film is beyond its expiration date, if it has been constantly stored in refrigerated storage, it should perform up to specifications. I know when you mail order film it arrives at room temperature, but that is just a few days and does not significantly influence the overall quality. You should put it into the refrigerator as soon as you get it.
Amateur color film stocks are shipped before reaching optimum and based on studies done on average sales and inventory levels are allowed to reach optimum at room temperature on dealers shelves. They will show deterioration if left unrefrigerated and used beyond expiration date. You can halt the changes in quality by refrigerating amateur film stocks, but you do not know, nor do you have any guarantee that the film stock is at optimum ageing when you purchase it.
It is the closer attention to color balance accuracy per manufacturing lot, and the refrigerated storage at the manufacturer and distributor that separates professional film stocks from amateur film stocks, that may actually start out as the same film.
phototone
Well-known
Why does it matter...an explanation.
Why does it matter...an explanation.
If you are a professional and you are shooting a large job, lets say a multi-page catalog shoot with hundreds or thousands of transparencies. You want the first shot to be the same color balance as the last shot. Clients are very particular about the color rendition of the photos of their products. The photo needs to look exactly like the product.
OK, so you shoot a few tests, have them processed, evaluate the transparencies on the light table, and possibly make corrections in your lighting to achieve a very neutral lighting scheme to accurately depict the clients products. You purchase enough professional film from the same emulsion lot (as indicated on the film box), to do the job, and once done, all the images should match for color.
If you purchased amateur film, there would be variances in the neutral balance of the images from roll to roll. Perhaps not enough to notice on the average street photography or scenics, but when you shoot in a studio with controlled lighting, you would notice a difference between shots from different rolls.
Why does it matter...an explanation.
If you are a professional and you are shooting a large job, lets say a multi-page catalog shoot with hundreds or thousands of transparencies. You want the first shot to be the same color balance as the last shot. Clients are very particular about the color rendition of the photos of their products. The photo needs to look exactly like the product.
OK, so you shoot a few tests, have them processed, evaluate the transparencies on the light table, and possibly make corrections in your lighting to achieve a very neutral lighting scheme to accurately depict the clients products. You purchase enough professional film from the same emulsion lot (as indicated on the film box), to do the job, and once done, all the images should match for color.
If you purchased amateur film, there would be variances in the neutral balance of the images from roll to roll. Perhaps not enough to notice on the average street photography or scenics, but when you shoot in a studio with controlled lighting, you would notice a difference between shots from different rolls.
Fedzilla_Bob
man with cat
Then I will stick with the amateur film, I'll be shooting outdoors for my pleasure and I am an amateur . It's all good.
. It's all good.
Trius
Waiting on Maitani
I agree with everything here, except that I don't think professional Kodachrome (or other professional emulsions) have an expiration date that corresponds with their peak, but that they are refrigerated to maintain optimum characteristics as much as possible. But theoretically a professional emulsion past its expiration date could not be sold at its full price, even if proper storage had maintained optimum characteristics.
OTOH, if you bought several different rolls of "amateur" Kodachrome all from the same emulsion batch, there could be variations roll-to-roll due to non-optimal storage conditions.
Trius
OTOH, if you bought several different rolls of "amateur" Kodachrome all from the same emulsion batch, there could be variations roll-to-roll due to non-optimal storage conditions.
Trius
dmr
Registered Abuser
Honu-Hugger said:
Hmmmm ... this is contrary to what I've always heard {maybe I haven't listened very well?} in that film is better the fresher it is, and it "spoils" so to speak from when it leaves the factory until it finally dies, which in actuality is long past the expiration date. I've never heard of "green" film having to "ripen" to reach its optimum. Ituitively, I would think that if it were designed to be right at specs at the expiration date, it would be better when fresher. I do know that film that sits will take on a background fog over time, allegedly from such things as heat and cosmic rays.
I also know that most film that's a few months or evena year out of date will give perfectly usable photos, but that exposed film that sits around for a year or so before being processed will give predictably yucky results.
Are there any authoritative cites on this "green" film phenomenon? Just curious ...
phototone
Well-known
dmr436 said:
While it is true that film past expiry date will often give very good results, this is not what we are talking about. What we are talking about, and this goes mostly for Professional film, is roll to roll consistancy, such that you cannot detect any significant differences in shots from each roll, assuming they were shot under the same lighting conditions.
I frequently use waaaay out of date film for my personal shots, but I use fresh professional film for my paying jobs, as it is predictable.
On Amateur film, it definately does peak in color quality before expiry date.
Honu-Hugger
Well-known
"Fresh" and "Spoil" are terms that will make the concept a little more difficult to understand. The film manufacturer has an optimum color balance or rendition designed into the film; the term "green" means that these dyes have not yet reached the maturation point they were designed to meet. This does not mean they will give unacceptable results, and pros will work with these films and make subtle color corrections through the use of filters. It has nothing to do with fogging, EI or anything else we commonly think of as a flaw with film; it has to do with the most nit-picky nuances of subtle color variation that most people could not easily discern -- or lets say I'm sure I couldn't . As photone mentioned, the catalog shoot is an excellent example of needing to replicate consistent results. On the other hand, to take the same film outdoors and shoot a variety of pictures under natural light there are so many variations that it all becomes very subjective.
. As photone mentioned, the catalog shoot is an excellent example of needing to replicate consistent results. On the other hand, to take the same film outdoors and shoot a variety of pictures under natural light there are so many variations that it all becomes very subjective.
SolaresLarrave
My M5s need red dots!
Kodachrome, unlike other slide films, seems to be a bit warmer (at least, that's been my experience). However, I wouldn't use it for portraits unless you like the "Technicolor" effect it has on skin tones. I like it: it makes people look like in old color films, probably because of the developing process in which colors are assigned to certain tones of grey.
Regardless of this effect, the stuff is simply wonderfully durable. My in-laws's slides, taken in the 60s, are still viewable and projectable. The colors aren't very saturated (my father-in-law used to project them fairly often) but the details aren't lost.
Hence, I buy it every time I can.
In fact, Bob, I'd recommend you to get some of the stuff soon. My stores here no longer carry it.
Regardless of this effect, the stuff is simply wonderfully durable. My in-laws's slides, taken in the 60s, are still viewable and projectable. The colors aren't very saturated (my father-in-law used to project them fairly often) but the details aren't lost.
Hence, I buy it every time I can.
In fact, Bob, I'd recommend you to get some of the stuff soon. My stores here no longer carry it.
Fedzilla_Bob
man with cat
OH, I've been watching my local drug store. It doesn't sell. I've been secretly hoping that it would go on sale. Its probably a little old. But, that's ok.
What the heck are you doing up at this hour?
I actually have some old kodachrome slides from the 80's that I shot. They scan beautifully on my canon scanner. The colors are still very rich as they weren't projected much. I had cibachromes made from them years ago. Man, were they intense.
What the heck are you doing up at this hour?
I actually have some old kodachrome slides from the 80's that I shot. They scan beautifully on my canon scanner. The colors are still very rich as they weren't projected much. I had cibachromes made from them years ago. Man, were they intense.
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Roger Hicks
Veteran
In the 70s, before 'pro' films came out, we used to batch-test (in our London advertising studio) for both speed and colour balance. 'Pro' films removed the need for that: they used to have the actual ISO printed on the slip that came with the film, andf it was almost invariably 1/3 stop below the nominal speed. ISO standards allow +/- 1/3 stop variations to be sold without changing the nominal ISO on the box. Control is much better nowadays, even for amateur films.
Labs also have an enormous effect, at least as much as batch variations in non-pro film. Top labs are consistent, but different. When the lab we used closed in maybe 1975, we tried 3 other high end pro labs, all with identically exposed films from the same batch. Colour variations of +/- 0.05 were regarded as very close; speed variations of 1/3 stop weren't unusual. We chose the one that was closest to our old lab.
'Green' film -- which is the normal term in the business, sorry dmr436 -- may also vary in speed as compared with aged film. The most notorious example was the original Ilford Delta 400. ISO standards demand that speed tests be conducted with both green and aged film, and when film is brand new, there is no aged film. You have to approximate, guess and use artificially aged film. The result was that the original Delta 400 was at least 1/3 stop below its ISO speed in most developers -- though of course, a speed increasing developer such as Microphen gave the full 400 easily.
Cheers,
Roger (www.rogerandfrances,com)
Labs also have an enormous effect, at least as much as batch variations in non-pro film. Top labs are consistent, but different. When the lab we used closed in maybe 1975, we tried 3 other high end pro labs, all with identically exposed films from the same batch. Colour variations of +/- 0.05 were regarded as very close; speed variations of 1/3 stop weren't unusual. We chose the one that was closest to our old lab.
'Green' film -- which is the normal term in the business, sorry dmr436 -- may also vary in speed as compared with aged film. The most notorious example was the original Ilford Delta 400. ISO standards demand that speed tests be conducted with both green and aged film, and when film is brand new, there is no aged film. You have to approximate, guess and use artificially aged film. The result was that the original Delta 400 was at least 1/3 stop below its ISO speed in most developers -- though of course, a speed increasing developer such as Microphen gave the full 400 easily.
Cheers,
Roger (www.rogerandfrances,com)