Kristine

If you go deeper in James' flickr, you will see some other photos of, obviously, the same model - and even some on which she's less clothed... but, again, those don't quite work for me.

I'd like to know what other fellows here think of this one (click), which remains my favorite... ;)
 
Reading the negative comments before seeing the photos... I really don't understand where the negativity is coming from.

For the genre of photography, these photos are relatively mainstream and ... I don't want to say tame, but the aren't boundary pushing with respect to edginess. I know we have posters here of a wide variety of ages, cultures and backgrounds but I'm surprised by that these images received the response they did.
 
helenhill_HH said:
Well you missed the original few posts directed at James directly after he posted his set of photos... Blatantly mean spirited & ugly in tone , throwing race & :sexism in the mix
They have been deleted but not sure by WHO ?
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Not that I mind my posts being deleted Helen, they are now superfluous anyway, but I thought you had deleted them, so if not you, who?
 
Ha how funny, we both thought it was Each Other
No Bobby it was Not me
I prefer to leave Posts showing
Because it gives the viewer a better understanding of the way things go down
Be it for good or bad

I just gave my verbal spin on the thread
And tried to change its direction

If it was Not You & Sejanus deleting your posts
Then it was Another Moderator
 
just came to this thread; James, I really enjoyed your Flickr stream - I agree with Andy. You have some very nice portraits in there.

Cheers,
 
I had to view Koven's Flickr stream to see the pictures in question...a must after this amount of kerfuffle!

I won't bother adding another meaningless opinion but simply say to Koven "well done," ruffling feathers and stoking up feeling is far better than being ignored or overlooked. I'd also wonder why, if these have caused such uproar, Frank Petronio's images seem to draw only positive comments? I've no desire to drag Frank, a photographer I much admire and respect, into this but his images have always appeared far more confrontational than those Koven posted so far. Age and experience perhaps?
 
Brian Legge said:
Reading the negative comments before seeing the photos... I really don't understand where the negativity is coming from.

For the genre of photography, these photos are relatively mainstream and ... I don't want to say tame, but the aren't boundary pushing with respect to edginess. I know we have posters here of a wide variety of ages, cultures and backgrounds but I'm surprised by that these images received the response they did.
Click to expand...

What you said.

This is the Internet societies paradox - people can have free access to thousands of thousands of photos online, and are getting prone to get offended easily by very inoffensive ones.

OTOH nobody does seem to be really concerned with all the real violence and vulgarity around (isn't there much more violence and disrespect towards the human being within having an iPod made by Chinese children under the control of some military force, than within shooting a pretty girl having her body tattoed ?).

Back in the 1970s and 1980s some photos by Helmut Newton and (for most, less talented) other guys were - and by far - more "audacious" than James' ones discussed here. And nobody (well, almost) found them offensive or being unrespectful for the models.

It might have been because you had at least to buy some photo books, read some photo magazines or attend some exhibitions to see them. They weren't available thanks to a routine mouseclick.

Maybe.
 
It might have been because you had at least to buy some photo books, read some photo magazines or attend some exhibitions to see them. They weren't available thanks to a routine mouseclick.
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I think you are absolutely right. That's the paradox of the internet in a nutshell: everything is just a few clicks away. The solution is probably to apply tighter controls to who can post what but that's up to those who build and maintain forums like this.
 
I see these photos as a world away from Helmut Newton's. He objectified the women, and celebrated their subjugation. James seems to be celebrating the strength and character of the women he photographs, representing them as rounded human beings rather than a cipher for a displaced and anonymisable fetish.
 
Sejanus.Aelianus said:
I think you are absolutely right. That's the paradox of the internet in a nutshell: everything is just a few clicks away. The solution is probably to apply tighter controls to who can post what but that's up to those who build and maintain forums like this.
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I think you haven't exactly understood what I meant.

I meant : there are so many photos out there which are available a few clicks away, and there is so much vulgarity around, that people are prone to get offended easily by some photos which, had they discovered them another way (call it "old fashioned"), they could have appreciated.

The lone "problem" (tongue in cheek seven times, because there is none IMO) with James' pictures of Kristine might be that they are numerous, some being in color, some having been B&W'ed ; there is a mass-series effect with them.

Taken alone, without all the other ones, the B&W photo of that girl holding the Nikon L35AF would keep all its mystery, with the tattoo being more elusive than explicitely shown (because it is on all the other photos).

"Applying tighter controls to who can post" is just a stupid idea. Excuse me for being so frank here - I don't want to be rude in any way.

The only solution is : let's get visually educated, and let's learn to look at a photograph the proper way.
 
The only solution is : let's get visually educated, and let's learn to look at a photograph the proper way.
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I disagree with you there. In my opinion, we don't need to "get educated". We see what is presented and we bring to it our experience and prejudice. There's no onus on the viewer to conform to the presenter's wishes of how the pictures should be assessed and no onus on the presenter to conform to the viewer's wishes as to what is good or bad.

It becomes a conversation and most of us have met people with whom we can never agree. So what? If we don't agree, we're free to say so. The whole of western civilisation, such as it is, could arguably be predicated on Voltair's famous statement: "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it".
 
Checked out the photos. Pretty woman with tattoos. How this could be controversial I haven't the slightest idea. Photographers are always tearing each other down. And I agree with OP, at least they weren't cat photos. The only thing I find somewhat unsavory, is when someone takes the time to start a thread and post photos, and then a few responders hijack the thread and clutter it up with so much muck (wish I was innocent of same) that many people just close the window and read another thread. :)
 
NY_Dan said:
Checked out the photos. Pretty woman with tattoos. How this could be controversial I haven't the slightest idea. Photographers are always tearing each other down. And I agree with OP, at least they weren't cat photos. The only thing I find somewhat unsavory, is when someone takes the time to start a thread and post photos, and then a few responders hijack the thread and clutter it up with so much muck that many people just close the window and read another thread. :)
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This is horribly aggravating and even worse, it seems to be an often accepted part of RFF culture.
It's one thing to go on a related tangent within a thread. Another to completely hijack it with ones agenda.
It especially pisses me off in this cace because the OP posted something so rare and much desired here on the Board.
His post was Photographs and nothing more. Photographs!!!
It seems opinions and dogma are more important than photographs to most members who post regularly here.
The former does not encourage the latter :(
 
goodness ... I just asked about her motivation for that tattoo, no condemnation, no value judgement simply asking for an explanation as to why she would do it

... tongue firmly back in cheek now Helen :)
 
f16sunshine said:
This is horribly aggravating and even worse, it seems to be an often accepted part of RFF culture.
It's one thing to go on a related tangent within a thread. Another to completely hijack it with ones agenda.
It especially pisses me off in this cace because the OP posted something so rare and much desired here on the Board.
His post was Photographs and nothing more. Photographs!!!
It seems opinions and dogma are more important than photographs to most members who post regularly here.
The former does not encourage the latter :(
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I share your view, Andy. Every time I see this kind of development on a thread, it makes me feel I'd wanna coming back to RFF only to see w/nw threads and post some photos there, nothing else. In fact, I think that's exactly what I'm gonna do now...

P.S. to the OP I had a chance to look at your photos very briefly before you removed them, and I thought they were very interesting.

Cheers,
 
Race card? Tattoos (on "young ladies")? WTF? From under what sort of rock do some people posting here crawl out?

As for Koven's website pictures, some are interesting and some people will like some and others will not, but hardly a need for a battle. Weird. How far can some of these people push their vanilla tastes on others. And why should anyone care?

MITCH ALLAND/Potomac, MD
Nightshots from Tristes Tropiques
Download link for PDF file of 16-shot portfolio
 
How far can some of these people push their vanilla tastes on others. And why should anyone care?
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The same question can be asked in reverse: How far can some of these people push their extreme tastes on others. And why should anyone care?

Perhaps the only answer is to post controversial material on closed websites and not on open forums? Of course, then the issue arises: How do you know, ahead of time, what will be controversial?
 
coelacanth said:
Every time I see this kind of development on a thread, it makes me feel I'd wanna coming back to RFF only to see w/nw threads and post some photos there, nothing else. In fact, I think that's exactly what I'm gonna do now...
Click to expand...

This wouldn't be more brilliant than hijacking threads in which casual pictures of pretty women with tattoos had been posted.

Are we left with this binary choice ? Either participating to w/nw threads by posting pictures and looking at some (in this case, why doing it on a photo forum) or getting involved in threads where people cannot discuss like adults about photography and photographs without coming to stupid arguments full of dumb moral judgements about the photos content ?

Please.
 
Moral Judgements

Moral Judgements

Really?

The Koven stuff looks like stuff from the '70's. Kind of old timey. What's old is new again. I suppose if one re-invents himself that's one thing, but reinventing the wheel (without having seen a wheel when they are everywhere) is another.
 
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