Avotius
Some guy
A friend has for the most part given up on film and has given his large format camera stuff to me. As much as I am interested in this stuff I would like some pointers from the people in the know.
First off I have not been able to pin down which large format camera this is. It says Sinar all over it so obviously its a Sinar. Also there is a place that says System C. KOCH. It is a wonderfully retro pea soup green with chrome rails and adjustment points. It has the 4x5 back. It also has a extra black colored rail extension thing and a 8x10 back. A little poking through google says what I have might be a Norma, and one of the rails does say Norma on it.
Also there are three lenses in boards, and a little poking around google says they are all ok lenses but as I understand it large format lenses are all for the most part good just with different characteristics. As the character of a lens is much more important to me than how sharp it is maybe someone here can tell me something interesting about these:
The first one says NIKKOR - SW 90MM 1:8 and it is in what seems to be a aftermarket lens board.
The second says FUJINON - W 1:5.6/180 and it is in a pea soup green Sinar lens board.
The last one says Schnieder - Kreuznach Symmar 1:5.6/150 1:12 265 also in one of those Sinar green boards. This one seems to be the oldest of the bunch.
The first two lenses have oil on the aperture blades, is this something I should worry about? The Schnieder has some dust and stuff in it but seems clean with very little haze for an old lens. I also notice two of the lenses seem a little wobbly in their mounts, I think I may remove them and remount to see if that fixes them.
My friend says I can use these lenses for 8x10 but I somehow think he has not tried it, I saw something online that said the NIKKOR can be used up to 5x7 only.
Also on the camera, I hear I should check to make sure the focus plane is correct with the ground glass and the film holders, how does one go about doing this correctly? There seem to be too many opinions about how to do this online, so some first hand advice would be helpful. I am familiar with large format cameras to some degree having used two Horseman cameras the last few years so but they were as I understood it, properly aligned.
Anyho thanks for your help, and as soon as I figure out how to develop BW 4x5 at home I will show some street (!) shots taken around here.
First off I have not been able to pin down which large format camera this is. It says Sinar all over it so obviously its a Sinar. Also there is a place that says System C. KOCH. It is a wonderfully retro pea soup green with chrome rails and adjustment points. It has the 4x5 back. It also has a extra black colored rail extension thing and a 8x10 back. A little poking through google says what I have might be a Norma, and one of the rails does say Norma on it.
Also there are three lenses in boards, and a little poking around google says they are all ok lenses but as I understand it large format lenses are all for the most part good just with different characteristics. As the character of a lens is much more important to me than how sharp it is maybe someone here can tell me something interesting about these:
The first one says NIKKOR - SW 90MM 1:8 and it is in what seems to be a aftermarket lens board.
The second says FUJINON - W 1:5.6/180 and it is in a pea soup green Sinar lens board.
The last one says Schnieder - Kreuznach Symmar 1:5.6/150 1:12 265 also in one of those Sinar green boards. This one seems to be the oldest of the bunch.
The first two lenses have oil on the aperture blades, is this something I should worry about? The Schnieder has some dust and stuff in it but seems clean with very little haze for an old lens. I also notice two of the lenses seem a little wobbly in their mounts, I think I may remove them and remount to see if that fixes them.
My friend says I can use these lenses for 8x10 but I somehow think he has not tried it, I saw something online that said the NIKKOR can be used up to 5x7 only.
Also on the camera, I hear I should check to make sure the focus plane is correct with the ground glass and the film holders, how does one go about doing this correctly? There seem to be too many opinions about how to do this online, so some first hand advice would be helpful. I am familiar with large format cameras to some degree having used two Horseman cameras the last few years so but they were as I understood it, properly aligned.
Anyho thanks for your help, and as soon as I figure out how to develop BW 4x5 at home I will show some street (!) shots taken around here.
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shadowfox
Darkroom printing lives
Wow, that's quite a gift. A 8x10 -capable Sinar is quite expensive.
I'd worry about the bellows first. Is it light-tight? apart from cursory inspection in the dark with a bright LED flashlight, nothing but taking a picture would confirm it.
Lenses, how are the shutters? these are more troublesome if not working correctly. Oily aperture blade would be trouble later on, but if it's working now, at least you can shoot some pictures to decide if you're going to keep the whole thing.
Start with this website and see if your lenses are listed, it should give you a good idea about the max image coverage, etc.
As for focus plane, unless you're shooting wide open all the time, it's unlikely that ground glass and film-in-holder difference would matter (unless the ground glass is not mounted properly). I'd check the springs for loose bolts, etc.
The film holder is more likely to suffer damage if not used for a long time. Also, light-tight-ness is your #1 thing to test here. Cracks on the darkslide, and the opening flap are prime suspects.
Developing 4x5 (or even 8x10) is nothing different than developing 35mm or 120. Even the amount of liquids are the same. You just need to get a hold of a 8x10 Unicolor paper drum (black with a liquid trough on one end). Then you can roll the drum by hand or get a machine roller. Use Rodinal, and a fixer. It's simple.
Good thing is, I imagine it's easy and cheap to get Chinese-made sheet film within China. Get the cheapest film you can get and start testing.
I'd worry about the bellows first. Is it light-tight? apart from cursory inspection in the dark with a bright LED flashlight, nothing but taking a picture would confirm it.
Lenses, how are the shutters? these are more troublesome if not working correctly. Oily aperture blade would be trouble later on, but if it's working now, at least you can shoot some pictures to decide if you're going to keep the whole thing.
Start with this website and see if your lenses are listed, it should give you a good idea about the max image coverage, etc.
As for focus plane, unless you're shooting wide open all the time, it's unlikely that ground glass and film-in-holder difference would matter (unless the ground glass is not mounted properly). I'd check the springs for loose bolts, etc.
The film holder is more likely to suffer damage if not used for a long time. Also, light-tight-ness is your #1 thing to test here. Cracks on the darkslide, and the opening flap are prime suspects.
Developing 4x5 (or even 8x10) is nothing different than developing 35mm or 120. Even the amount of liquids are the same. You just need to get a hold of a 8x10 Unicolor paper drum (black with a liquid trough on one end). Then you can roll the drum by hand or get a machine roller. Use Rodinal, and a fixer. It's simple.
Good thing is, I imagine it's easy and cheap to get Chinese-made sheet film within China. Get the cheapest film you can get and start testing.
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JOE1951
Established
Benjamin Marks
Veteran
Superb. What you have is a Sinar Norma, the sine qua non of modular studio monorail cameras. The lenses will be fine. They were top-of-the-line in their day. You make the 150 into a 256 by unscrewing the front element and using only the rear one. You may have to stop down quite a bit to get coverage in the corners for 8x10. They will all be adequate for 4x5, even with some movements. Perspective control is one of the great advantages of LF. You can also find roll film backs and experiment with 120 on this. 6x17 panoramas? No problem.
The only thing I would add to what Will said was that in a truly dark room, you can develop 4x5 or 8x10 film in open trays, pretty much as you would with paper (use rubber gloves). An 8x10 sheet has the same area as a roll of 35mm film. Ditto: 4 sheets of 4x5. These cameras are highly modular: there are still bellows shades, extension rails, binocular viewers, pop up focusing hoods that will fit. The configurations of the components is endless. Do yourself a favor and try some LF contact printing. Even at 4x5, the image quality is something that is increasingly rare in today's digi-world. Skin looks, well, more skin-like, fabric looks . . . well, you get the idea.
Congratulations on your good fortune!
Ben Marks
The only thing I would add to what Will said was that in a truly dark room, you can develop 4x5 or 8x10 film in open trays, pretty much as you would with paper (use rubber gloves). An 8x10 sheet has the same area as a roll of 35mm film. Ditto: 4 sheets of 4x5. These cameras are highly modular: there are still bellows shades, extension rails, binocular viewers, pop up focusing hoods that will fit. The configurations of the components is endless. Do yourself a favor and try some LF contact printing. Even at 4x5, the image quality is something that is increasingly rare in today's digi-world. Skin looks, well, more skin-like, fabric looks . . . well, you get the idea.
Congratulations on your good fortune!
Ben Marks
sevo
Fokutorendaburando
Right, it is a Norma. A bit less modular than the later Sinar P, but even harder to kill. If the shutter blades on the shutters are oily, the seller or some other fool will have doused them in oil (or wirde, WD40) in a incompetent maintenance attempt - they should be professionally cleaned rather sooner than later, before the oil gums up or migrates to the glass.
BillBingham2
Registered User
The only issue oil on the aperture blades is auto-return lenses that you would find on an SLR. It's FINE on large format stuff. You have some KICK A55 glass there.
B2 (;->
B2 (;->
kuzano
Veteran
Quite a gift....
Quite a gift....
Large format cameras essentially come in 2 flavors... Monorail (your Sinar) and Folding Field cameras. As you might gather from that, folding field cameras are for easily transportable activities like site or landscape photgraphy. Monorails are better suited for studio photography. You may have deduced that from the size, although nothing prevents using either one for all large format activities. Monorails also have many more movement options, which is again, an asset for studio or product/advertising photography.
The lenses are rather universal from style to style, but the lenses you received will create an image circle that suits 4X5, better than 8X10. I doubt there would be much movement area, if any for 8X10. Therefore, the lenses you have may not fully utilize the capability of the Sinar in 8X10 mode. However, it's likely you can get a format reducing back for 4X5 making the camera more useful for the lens stable you received. such backs extend the range of the camera. If you reduce the format to 4X5, you can then also get roll film backs and add perspective control to 120 roll film photography.
You have some very nice lenses in this set, presuming they are in good shape. As with all LF lenses on which you do not have the history, it would be good to have the shutters tested for actual speed ratings. That can be done by either burning film, or get a tester for about $150. Calumet has a speed tester. Or have them serviced and tested.
The least capable, but still imminently usable lens in the lot is the Schneider Convertible, which has two focal lengths, and two f stop scales. As mentioned, removing the front lens element and only using the rear gives you a longer focal length.
Be VERY CAREFUL on using this setup. Once you see a 4X5 image produced by this system, YOU WILL BE HOOKED and will sell all your other stuff to delve into this world. Then, if you ever see an 8X10, you photo life will begin anew.
Trust me on this.
Quite a gift....
Large format cameras essentially come in 2 flavors... Monorail (your Sinar) and Folding Field cameras. As you might gather from that, folding field cameras are for easily transportable activities like site or landscape photgraphy. Monorails are better suited for studio photography. You may have deduced that from the size, although nothing prevents using either one for all large format activities. Monorails also have many more movement options, which is again, an asset for studio or product/advertising photography.
The lenses are rather universal from style to style, but the lenses you received will create an image circle that suits 4X5, better than 8X10. I doubt there would be much movement area, if any for 8X10. Therefore, the lenses you have may not fully utilize the capability of the Sinar in 8X10 mode. However, it's likely you can get a format reducing back for 4X5 making the camera more useful for the lens stable you received. such backs extend the range of the camera. If you reduce the format to 4X5, you can then also get roll film backs and add perspective control to 120 roll film photography.
You have some very nice lenses in this set, presuming they are in good shape. As with all LF lenses on which you do not have the history, it would be good to have the shutters tested for actual speed ratings. That can be done by either burning film, or get a tester for about $150. Calumet has a speed tester. Or have them serviced and tested.
The least capable, but still imminently usable lens in the lot is the Schneider Convertible, which has two focal lengths, and two f stop scales. As mentioned, removing the front lens element and only using the rear gives you a longer focal length.
Be VERY CAREFUL on using this setup. Once you see a 4X5 image produced by this system, YOU WILL BE HOOKED and will sell all your other stuff to delve into this world. Then, if you ever see an 8X10, you photo life will begin anew.
Trust me on this.
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x-ray
Veteran
It certainly sounds like a Norma. I bought a new 4x5 expert and 5x7 conversion kit for it in 1969 and still use it to this day. I wouldn't trade it for any other monorail. The Sinar rep tole me these were totally hand made. In 1969 7 people were in the Sinar factory making these and made a total of 750 cameras (all formats combined). They are very precision made. The 90 Nikkor is highly prizes as one of the finest and the smallest physically with the largest image circle of all but the 90 XL schndider which is about twice the size. The Fuji is a terrific lens as well and the convertible Symmar is excellent. Converted even stopped down they are rather lack luster but at the 150 FL it's a great lens. None will cover 8x10 with possibly the 150 converted but again it's not very good converted. The character between brands and models of view lenses is virtually non existent except for antique glass. Some antique glass like Wollensak Vitax, Cooke Bi-Quality, etc. will be dramatically different. The biggest difference in modern glass (60's up) is coatings, coverage and name.
oftheherd
Veteran
That is so neat!!! I can't wait for two things. Your first shots with it posted here at RFF, and your description of your awe of the first contact prints you make.
Keep us imformed.
Keep us imformed.
Ezzie
E. D. Russell Roberts
Whooooah. I wish I had friends like that! Congratulations indeed.
Avotius
Some guy
Thanks for the words chaps. It seems I have a decent set up here then. The only thing missing is a magnifier for checking focus. Also I think I need to get a new ground glass as the one on it now seems awfully dim.
I got some Era 4x5 black and white film to check out everything and figure out how to develop the film here at home. I guess there are special developing tanks for the job, I just got to find the right ones. I have a set of AP tanks for 35mm and medium format, so I will check out if they make anything I can use.
I got some Era 4x5 black and white film to check out everything and figure out how to develop the film here at home. I guess there are special developing tanks for the job, I just got to find the right ones. I have a set of AP tanks for 35mm and medium format, so I will check out if they make anything I can use.
kuzano
Veteran
Tray Processing....
Tray Processing....
If you can make a small room dark enough, you might find tray processing a bit less expensive until you know if you are going to do more with LF. Then, in the absence of a dark space, there are old tanks like the Yankee Tanks for loading in the dark and processing in the light.
Tray Processing....
If you can make a small room dark enough, you might find tray processing a bit less expensive until you know if you are going to do more with LF. Then, in the absence of a dark space, there are old tanks like the Yankee Tanks for loading in the dark and processing in the light.
Avotius
Some guy
I had a darkroom in my house before and am looking into doing it in my studio now.
I have some developing trays but they are massive. I have seen little trays which I think may be ideal for this processing job and they are really cheap, but tray developing seems dangerous in the fact that the film surface might contact the tray surface and get scratches especially while its wet.
I am going to look and see if there are some chinese knock off developing tanks that might work better on the cheap too.
I have some developing trays but they are massive. I have seen little trays which I think may be ideal for this processing job and they are really cheap, but tray developing seems dangerous in the fact that the film surface might contact the tray surface and get scratches especially while its wet.
I am going to look and see if there are some chinese knock off developing tanks that might work better on the cheap too.
kuzano
Veteran
If you are looking for more LF info
If you are looking for more LF info
Go here:
http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/search.php?searchid=3822559
If this doesn't take you to the unified pages, look for the link to "unified....." at the top.
This is the LF format forum I spend a lot of time on. Search here for info. It seems as I recall, you have to be registered for 30 days to use the "for sale" section, but you can search thread right away.
Good people (like here) and tons of information about film processing, not to mention help.
If you are looking for more LF info
Go here:
http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/search.php?searchid=3822559
If this doesn't take you to the unified pages, look for the link to "unified....." at the top.
This is the LF format forum I spend a lot of time on. Search here for info. It seems as I recall, you have to be registered for 30 days to use the "for sale" section, but you can search thread right away.
Good people (like here) and tons of information about film processing, not to mention help.
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Frank Petronio
Well-known
The Large Format Photography dot Info forum is the best for very comprehensive and helpful answers.
I have a similar set up to yours and have shot LF for 27 years and can offer a few comments:
- You didn't mention an 8x10 bellows. They can be rather expensive, $300 for used one or a custom-made replacement from camerabellows.uk. You'll also need 8x10 holders and the film itself. Plus your lenses really won't cover 8x10 unless you are working very close. So you may want to consider selling the 8x10 back because it would cost you another $6-800 USd to get started with 8x10.
The back is worth $3-400 USd, about the same as a nice #3-4-5 series metal Gitzo with a $200 Sinar Pan-Tilt head. This head is the best Sinar camera accessory to get, the Sinar Pan-Tilt head is made to work perfectly with the camera and should have been included as part of the camera in my opinion.
- You could probably unload the 150 as well, since the 180 is so close. Or vice-versa. Getting a CLA on the shutters for proper timing would be a priority over oil on the aperture blades but they usually aren't too bad. You can tell by comparing them to your other mechanical cameras sound-wise. You can certainly use them as-is initially.
- I don't care for the Nikkor 90/8 or any of the Nikon view lenses, I think that are characterless and you don't need a slow, compact lens with this camera - you aren't backpacking with it. Still it is valued by crazy backpackers who need characterless lenses for sunsets.
- Open tray development is the easiest, especially for tests.
- Don't over tighten the controls, the camera is completely adjustable for detents, alignment, tension, position of knobs, etc. Your Sinar distributor probably still has parts.
- The original Sinar ground glass should be in perfect position as it is, since the back's metal frame is precisely milled. If you want a brighter ground glass, there is a removable
Sinar fresnel lens in a frame that is placed over the ground glass on the viewer's side of the camera. This is unlike many cameras that place a fresnel between the ground glass and the lens. The advantage is that you can focus more accurately on the actual ground glass and for many situations you don't want to see the texture of the fresnel. In fact your problem probably is not that your ground glass is too dim but your darkcloth is too light. Try letting your eyes adjust longer. Black t-shirts are usually fine for darkclothes but you might try something more opaque. They can get hot and sweaty though.
I usually use a Graflex folding metal focusing hood with mine instead of using a cloth, although I will use the cloth in bright sun.
- Any cheap 4-8x slide viewing loupe or even a reversed cheap 35mm lens will work fine. I use a longer "Hood Loupe" (Toyo or Horseman) with the Graflex hood.
- Note that on the LF forum there will be excessive worryworts who obsess about the brightness of their ground glass or spend $300 on a viewing loupe or worry that their ground glass is 0.001mm too thick. They don't make many photos, and the few photos they do make are really bad in spite of their quest for perfection.
- If you have a short rail you can slide everything together, that is the easiest way to carry it. You can also detach the bellows from the rear and fold it forward. Then raise the front and fold it backwards so it and the bellows cushion the ground glass. Or you can disassemble it all and wrap it in cushions and toss into a backpack.
- Just go photographing ;-) the LF Photo forum has plenty of opinions and answers.
I have a similar set up to yours and have shot LF for 27 years and can offer a few comments:
- You didn't mention an 8x10 bellows. They can be rather expensive, $300 for used one or a custom-made replacement from camerabellows.uk. You'll also need 8x10 holders and the film itself. Plus your lenses really won't cover 8x10 unless you are working very close. So you may want to consider selling the 8x10 back because it would cost you another $6-800 USd to get started with 8x10.
The back is worth $3-400 USd, about the same as a nice #3-4-5 series metal Gitzo with a $200 Sinar Pan-Tilt head. This head is the best Sinar camera accessory to get, the Sinar Pan-Tilt head is made to work perfectly with the camera and should have been included as part of the camera in my opinion.
- You could probably unload the 150 as well, since the 180 is so close. Or vice-versa. Getting a CLA on the shutters for proper timing would be a priority over oil on the aperture blades but they usually aren't too bad. You can tell by comparing them to your other mechanical cameras sound-wise. You can certainly use them as-is initially.
- I don't care for the Nikkor 90/8 or any of the Nikon view lenses, I think that are characterless and you don't need a slow, compact lens with this camera - you aren't backpacking with it. Still it is valued by crazy backpackers who need characterless lenses for sunsets.
- Open tray development is the easiest, especially for tests.
- Don't over tighten the controls, the camera is completely adjustable for detents, alignment, tension, position of knobs, etc. Your Sinar distributor probably still has parts.
- The original Sinar ground glass should be in perfect position as it is, since the back's metal frame is precisely milled. If you want a brighter ground glass, there is a removable
Sinar fresnel lens in a frame that is placed over the ground glass on the viewer's side of the camera. This is unlike many cameras that place a fresnel between the ground glass and the lens. The advantage is that you can focus more accurately on the actual ground glass and for many situations you don't want to see the texture of the fresnel. In fact your problem probably is not that your ground glass is too dim but your darkcloth is too light. Try letting your eyes adjust longer. Black t-shirts are usually fine for darkclothes but you might try something more opaque. They can get hot and sweaty though.
I usually use a Graflex folding metal focusing hood with mine instead of using a cloth, although I will use the cloth in bright sun.
- Any cheap 4-8x slide viewing loupe or even a reversed cheap 35mm lens will work fine. I use a longer "Hood Loupe" (Toyo or Horseman) with the Graflex hood.
- Note that on the LF forum there will be excessive worryworts who obsess about the brightness of their ground glass or spend $300 on a viewing loupe or worry that their ground glass is 0.001mm too thick. They don't make many photos, and the few photos they do make are really bad in spite of their quest for perfection.
- If you have a short rail you can slide everything together, that is the easiest way to carry it. You can also detach the bellows from the rear and fold it forward. Then raise the front and fold it backwards so it and the bellows cushion the ground glass. Or you can disassemble it all and wrap it in cushions and toss into a backpack.
- Just go photographing ;-) the LF Photo forum has plenty of opinions and answers.
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Avotius
Some guy
I am going to try shooting a a couple shots in the studio in a few days and see how everything is. The 8x10 back does have the bellows and 3 film holders and what not.
I checked both bellows with a flashlight and could only find a minor little pinhole in the 4x5 which I patched with electrical tape. The 8x10 bellows seems a little stiff but I did not find any holes in it.
Anyway I will check out those links, seems like a lot of boning up to do.
I checked both bellows with a flashlight and could only find a minor little pinhole in the 4x5 which I patched with electrical tape. The 8x10 bellows seems a little stiff but I did not find any holes in it.
Anyway I will check out those links, seems like a lot of boning up to do.
Avotius
Some guy
I have spent the last two days familiarizing myself with the camera, waiting for the film so I can take some test shots and see if it all works right.
This ground glass view is pretty annoying, you can only see a little spot at a time and you have to move your head around all over to see anything. I think I will find one of those fresnel screens.
In the meantime however camera porn:
This ground glass view is pretty annoying, you can only see a little spot at a time and you have to move your head around all over to see anything. I think I will find one of those fresnel screens.
In the meantime however camera porn:
Avotius
Some guy
I have shot my first film with the camera. It worked out great. I did not take careful enough notice on the Schneider of the X/M setting and it was on M with studio flashes and the frame was black. The Fuji is a pretty good lens, very smooth in the out of focus stuff. Have not tried the Nikkor yet, it seems a little too wide but will take it somewhere that I can make use of that.
Unfortunately the first shots I did were in studio commercial shots and I have an agreement with the other guy not to show the images to anyone else, but I can say....crap, I dare say the 118 megabyte tif scan that came out of the Creo scanner is way beyond anything I have ever shot with a medium format digital. Only downside? The shop that developed my slides....I have never seen such dirty film before in my life. Cleaning up one frame took over 5 hours!
Unfortunately the first shots I did were in studio commercial shots and I have an agreement with the other guy not to show the images to anyone else, but I can say....crap, I dare say the 118 megabyte tif scan that came out of the Creo scanner is way beyond anything I have ever shot with a medium format digital. Only downside? The shop that developed my slides....I have never seen such dirty film before in my life. Cleaning up one frame took over 5 hours!
dfoo
Well-known
Sounds cool! I bought 4 boxes of Shanghai ISO 100 4x5 film ($10 a box) when I was in Shanghai. I haven't shot any of it yet in my 4x5, but I will. I'm jealous that you got the 8x10 back with your Sinar... I'd like to get one, but they are quite spendy. Looking forward to seeing some shots.