Last Night at the LA Leica Store with the Leica T

[Godfrey]

... I'm very skeptical about "buying in" to a new system from a manufacturer not known for their ability to deliver timely updates or support.

Um, my experience with Leica has been the opposite. They've always been excellent on support and provided sensible updates on a reasonable schedule. For instance, the '65 Summicron-R 50mm f/2 lens I have is a single cam model and cannot drive the open-aperture metering in the Leicaflex SL properly ... it was designed for the original Leicaflex. Leica USA can and will still update the lens. That's not bad for a 50 year old lens!

I'm no optics expert, but would a smaller lens mount interfere with M lenses?

There's an ideal range of lens mount diameter to format size which enables fast lenses to be designed and used with little constraints. Too small a lens mount diameter makes it hard to design a fast lens that doesn't vignette. Too large makes the lenses larger than needed for a format and nets little benefit.

The FourThirds and Micro-FourThirds lens mount was designed to handle up to f/1.4 lenses ideally, with great freedom of optical design and no vignetting. Faster than that and the lens designs become a challenge.

If you look in the throat of the T, the sensor is very undersize for the mount by comparison to any of the other mirrorless cameras. The T mount is larger diameter than the Sony E mount, the next largest, which is just barely large enough to provide a good base for faster lenses on a FF sensor. The body construction is also rugged and stable enough for large lenses. That suggests to me that they are intending a FF sensor for this line at some point in the future.

G

 

[CameraQuest]

as a side note, I found the T's EVF extremely irritating
because it is so GOOD - the best I have seen.

Why irritating? Because its really irritating to me that the much more expensive M240 does not have an EVF every bit as good!

Stephen

 

[Godfrey]

as a side note, I found the T's EVF extremely irritating
because it is so GOOD - the best I have seen.

Why irritating? Because its really irritating to me that the much more expensive M240 does not have an EVF every bit as good!

Stephen

EVF development has just been moving very very fast the past couple of years. I'll be interested to see what the new Visoflex is like.

At the moment, the E-M1 has the best of the current production I've tested. It's the first one that I find hard to distinguish from an optical reflex finder in all types of light, better than the Sony A7 or Fuji X-T1, and the various Panasonics or others, to my eye.

If the Visoflex goes beyond that, it's going to increase the draw for me. 🙂

G

 

[aizan]

leica already makes full frame mirrorless, and they have tons of lenses for it already. 🙄

 

[YYV_146]

as a side note, I found the T's EVF extremely irritating
because it is so GOOD - the best I have seen.

Why irritating? Because its really irritating to me that the much more expensive M240 does not have an EVF every bit as good!

Stephen

The M240‘s EVF is older than the camera - I think the original iteration came out for Olympus Pen cameras in late 2010. I used to use one with the X2 - and it was already subpar then. Four years in the digital worlds is like six decades for a person...

And if I had to list a single reason why I don't have a M240, it would be the EVF. Too many M lenses too long or wide for the RF patch, and a few others with no coupling at all.

 

[Roger Hicks]

The difference with Apple is that there's substance to back up the style. . .

Some would substitute "Leica" for "Apple" in that sentence.

Cheers,

R.

 

[edge100]

Some would substitute "Leica" for "Apple" in that sentence.

Cheers,

R.

In general, I agree (as the unquoted portion of my post made clear, with respect to the unique qualities of the Leica M).

The T is a "me too" camera that serves no purpose that isn't already served for far less money from other camera makers.

Still, your usual pithiness is appreciated.

 

[Michael Markey]

The T is a "me too" camera that serves no purpose that isn't already served for far less money from other camera makers.

For you ...and for me too ...but not for everybody.

The fact that you can buy a similar performing camera for less money may be important to me or you but , again ,not to all.
Leica must feel that they have a market for the camera ...otherwise why would they make it.

 

[robert blu]

...Leica must feel that they have a market for the camera ...otherwise why would they make it.

I think they know their market and how it will change. It's possible the T is also a kind of test for further development.

robert

 

[edge100]

For you ...and for me too ...but not for everybody.

The fact that you can buy a similar performing camera for less money may be important to me or you but , again ,not to all.
Leica must feel that they have a market for the camera ...otherwise why would they make it.

They're making it because they know they can sell enough to justify its existence; I agree.

But that has nothing to do with its photographic prowess, with the (potential) exception as a platform for M mount glass, where it MAY be better than the other offerings (other than the Ricoh, that is).

But $2000 for a 23/2 is an horrific joke, even if it were FF-compatible for use on a 2nd gen camera.

People will buy it though.

 

[Michael Markey]

They're making it because they know they can sell enough to justify its existence; I agree.
But $2000 for a 23/2 is an horrific joke, even if it were FF-compatible for use on a 2nd gen camera.

People will buy it though.

Yep ...and thats all that matters.
In terms of cost I wouldn`t pay $2000 for that lens either .

I was talking to a young chap the other day however who had that much sitting behind two bars as tabs for when he and his mates hit the town tonight.

Rich bankers ...no ....construction workers working all the hours that they can.

Folk blow that sort of cash every day on things more ephemeral than a Leica.

 

[edge100]

Yep ...and thats all that matters.
In terms of cost I wouldn`t pay $2000 for that lens either .

I was talking to a young chap the other day however who had that much sitting behind two bars as tabs for when he and his mates hit the town tonight.

Rich bankers ...no ....construction workers working all the hours that they can.

Folk blow that sort of cash every day on things more ephemeral than a Leica.

To be clear, I'd pay 1.5x the price for a 35 Cron ASPH (I shoot width an MP) because it's mated to a sensible camera system that does things that no other system does, for any price.

Why would I pay $2k for the Leica 23/2 vs $900 for the Fuji 23/1.4?!? The only possible answer is: it's a Leica.

 

[Michael Markey]

Yes ...I`d agree with that.
I perhaps should add that in fifty years doing photography I`ve only ever bought two new cameras ... a GR and a DP2M. 🙂

The remainder have been either borrowed , inherited or bought very cheaply.
Not high enough on my list of priorities , but it is for others.

 

[Lss]

Why would I pay $2k for the Leica 23/2 vs $900 for the Fuji 23/1.4?!? The only possible answer is: it's a Leica.

No, it's not the only possible answer. First of all, these lenses are not for the same system, so you need to consider the systems and not just the lenses. The design goals behind them are rather different. Whichever suits you personally is the way to go. As a whole, I don't think there is a product or product line on the market that is directly comparable to the Leica T. (Perhaps there is a point-and-shoot that comes close in some aspects. I haven't really followed the pocket camera market very closely.)

In terms of practical image quality, the two lenses should be so close that you may base your purchase decision on price, size, speed, handling, or something else.

 

[Aristophanes]

As a whole, I don't think there is a product or product line on the market that is directly comparable to the Leica T.

You mean a largish, heavyish mirrorless with no optical or in-body image stabilization, no AE lock, no AF lock, and a mediocre sensor?

ON spec it is inferior to much less costly products. The red dot is increasingly about being a status symbol only.

CAD/CAM means all optical manufacturers now can make outstanding lenses. The electronics (especially the sensor), manufacturing processes, and software have completely levelled the playing field amongst camera bodies and their IQ performance.

 

[Lss]

You mean a largish, heavyish mirrorless with no AE lock, no AF lock?

I'm sorry for taking out a few words from the quote - but this pretty much sums it up from a (somewhat negative) perspective. Yes, I mean the design goals, which manifest themselves through these features or lack of them. It is not a "traditional" me-too mirrorless, although at first glance the camera does resemble some of the earlier ones like Sony NEX. There is a grip, a lens mount, and a screen on the back with very little else. Therefore the shape is generally similar to other small camera bodies.

This is a simplified camera with a new take on user interface. It may not suit the enhusiasts and pros who are generally used to certain ways and need certain controls. Or it may work for some of them. I don't know without trying. I know I don't like absence of some features such as an integrated EVF. (A feature that would have changed the look of the current product; it may be possible to solve this problem in future products.)

This is also very much a modern life style product, and it is priced that way - and of course the Leica way. I don't think anyone buying a camera based on a feature list and price comparison is buying this one.

 

[grdglass]

The M to T adapter recognizing M coded lenses is brilliant.

Brilliant? Yes, brilliant in making more money by having to buy an adapter. How about making the T with M mount?

 

[Bill Clark]

Thanks for the report. I will need to scope out the store the next time we're in LaCanada visiting our daughter and her family.

However, I'm really enjoying leica rangefinder cameras as I just bought a E++ Summaron 35mm lens for my IIIf and made test photos with the lens wide open using K100 film. Developed in d-76 1+1 and they look great.

Thanks for the forum. it has caused a resurgence using film for me!

Have wonderful weekend.

 

[mfunnell]

Brilliant? Yes, brilliant in making more money by having to buy an adapter. How about making the T with M mount?

My question would be more along the lines of: how loud would the carping be if Leica had made no provision for M-mount? Whichever way they jump, they lose. At least among many opinionators. My guess, and hope, is that the outrage (their new camera isn't designed for me 😱 ; how did that happen?) will have little to no impact on their target market or sales figures.

...Mike

 

[leica M2 fan]

I'm not boarding the 'T' train since I'm perfectly content with what my A7 does
and does well.