Last resort on flashes

btgc

btgc

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I've got two old flashes as part of another buy, none working. One starts to charge though readiness lamp never comes on; it's firing, not sure yet if exposure is right.

Another don't even starts to charge, I mean, no hissing sound; not firing too. ON-OFF switch slides smoothly.

Any ideas what usually are common problems ? I realize how stupid this sounds, as no doctor can do surgery by phone...but usually there are common failures for each device, that's why I tried to ask before giving up.
 
I'm sort of in the same boat as you, in my quest to find the oldest possible working electronic flash to use with my 1930's thru '50s Leicas.


What brand of flash units are you trying to rehabilitate ?


I'm struggling with a Braun Hobby from the '50s... has a black battery-case on a shoulder strap and a seperate flash head with a bowl-shaped reflector, the unit charges and flashes of household current, but I can't get it to charge off of batteries ( 3 "D"-cells).

The other units I'm playing around with are a couple of Braun F-270 units from about 1970 (?). These are gray plastic, "hot-shoe" mount, and have a permanent NiCad rechargeable battery inside. They flash fine off household current, but on an overnight charge, I've only been able to get about 15 to 20 flashes out of them, I've been charging / discharging them every day for almost a week, hoping that the NiCads will "rejuvenate".... I took one of them apart to see if the batteries could be replaced; they were a custom pack, made of three "disc" cells, stacked and shrink-wrapped, with connector-tabs soldered on either side , to connect to the circuit boards.

They are "replaceable", if I could find replacements... apparently, they were a 6-volt NiCad, the only markings are "DEAC 500DKZ"; the only info I could find on the web about them was that there was a Hasselblad in the early '70s that used the same battery-pack to power the camera's electronics.

If you're shopping for a vintage flash unit, your best bet is to find something that uses replaceable dry-cells, such as a Heiland or Honeywell "Strobonar" ("potato-masher"_); these take 3 "C"-cells in the flash head.

Good luck...

Luddite Frank
 
btgc said:
I've got two old flashes as part of another buy, none working. One starts to charge though readiness lamp never comes on; it's firing, not sure yet if exposure is right.

Another don't even starts to charge, I mean, no hissing sound; not firing too. ON-OFF switch slides smoothly.

Any ideas what usually are common problems ? I realize how stupid this sounds, as no doctor can do surgery by phone...but usually there are common failures for each device, that's why I tried to ask before giving up.
Click to expand...

I'm no expert, but I would have thought that barring 'bulb' failure, most flashes would die when their capacitors either fail in use or deteriorate to the point where they no longer work. Lack of use speeds the deterioration I believe. That's why it's recommended to fire a flash a few times every month or two if it's sitting idle.

Btw, the above assumes that we aren't talking about flashes with built in batteries - or are we? Dead rechargeables are of course another possible cause if we are. If you were set on using an old flash that had a built in battery it would almost certainly be possible to replace the cells - the variety of batteries on the market these days is huge. My other hobby (somewhat dormant since going to university) is r/c planes and just as camera gearheads obsess over MTF graphs and bokeh, r/c modellers lose sleep over battery discharge graphs and the pros and cons of competing cell technologies.

Matthew
 
If you can post the overall dimensions of the "packs" I may be able to point you in the right direction. I have a "friendly" supplier who custom makes packs for me. 12 cells in 2 packs for the LX motor drive. It is surprising what sizes are available.

Kim

Luddite Frank said:
They are "replaceable", if I could find replacements... apparently, they were a 6-volt NiCad, the only markings are "DEAC 500DKZ"; the only info I could find on the web about them was that there was a Hasselblad in the early '70s that used the same battery-pack to power the camera's electronics.


Good luck...

Luddite Frank
Click to expand...
 
The most "common" cause is failure of the capacitors. Be carefull with the older flashguns, there are some very high voltages involved. 😉

Kim

btgc said:
I've got two old flashes as part of another buy, none working. One starts to charge though readiness lamp never comes on; it's firing, not sure yet if exposure is right.

Another don't even starts to charge, I mean, no hissing sound; not firing too. ON-OFF switch slides smoothly.

Any ideas what usually are common problems ? I realize how stupid this sounds, as no doctor can do surgery by phone...but usually there are common failures for each device, that's why I tried to ask before giving up.
Click to expand...
 
Electronic flash needs use to keep the capacitors healthy. Sometimes it's possible to reform the capacitor through continuous firing/recharging. Eats up a lot of batteries, though. The ready light will work when the capacitor is reformed. Nicads are another source of grief. They have a limited life, defined by the number of charge/discharge cycles. Sometimes, a higher than normal voltage jolt will restore the interior chemistry, but replacement is best. i had two really great Vivitar 292's that I threw in the garbage because they only accepted dedicated nicads. A replacement 283 was the cheaper and more reliable fix. Now I have a simpler and cheaper 2800. Reliable and easy on batteries.
 
I should say, that those flashes are working on AA's, not NiCd's...luxon 9800A and mecablitz 30 bct2. Luxon has tilting head which is nice.

So you think that I repeating charging/firing possibly could bring capacitor back to life - at least in that flash which starts to charge ? And one not charging - gone is gone ?

Luddite Frank - hope you'll find those cells for replacement and enjoy your nice units 🙂
 
The instructions for both my big black BrAun Hobby Standard and Heiland Strobonar mention "forming the capacitor" when the flash has sat idle for more tha na few days. They recommend using the AC adapter for "reforming" the capacitor, letting it charge anywhere from 15 minutes to overnight, then tripping the repeatedly for a period of 15 minutes.

After this "reforming", they say it is safe to switch to battery power.

I would say that your unit that uses the AA batteries is the best candidate. If charging / forming on AC is not an option, get some AA rechargables ( I've found plenty at Lowe's / Home Desperate / most drug-stores, that way you can re-form the cap w/o trashing a lot of single-use batteries.

The challenge I have with trying to replace the cells in my BrAun F-270, is that they are crammed into a very small space.

Kim: I'll measure them and post the dimensions.


Best regards,

Luddite Frank
 
Just wanted to remind everyone of the dangers of working on flashes - capacitors are designed to store large amounts of electricity and then release them instantaneously - you don't want that to be released into your body! Always take the neccesary precautions and make sure that the caps are fully discharged before proceeding.

Frank, as to your flash problem, I would bet money that it lies with the Ni-Cad batteries. Custom packs like that are made up of non-custom cells wired together and shrink wrapped, I'm sure you could do the same. Radio shack used to have an assortment of individual rechargable cells, you could check there. If they don't have it, I'm sure you could find an electronics supplier online that sells them.

You could check and see if it's the batteries by disconnecting the pack, making sure to note the polarity, and then wire a AA battery holder to the circuit using enough batteries to match the voltage. If it fires, then you know it was the batteries. You could probably even rig something with an external battery pack if you had trouble finding the right cells for and internal one.
 
Oh, and also you could check out replacement batteries for cordless phones - those come in all manner of configurations and maybe one would be similar enough to yours to work, or could be modified to work. I'm pretty sure Radio Shack still has a good selection of those.
 
tried to "reform" capacitor, hissing sound has become barely audible, though no READY light comes on yet. Will try harder.
 
Be careful! If it hasn't worked so far, it is unlikely to get better. If electrolytic capaiters are not used (charged) for some time, they end up with a memory effect similar to that if you repeat charge a NiCd battery. Cycling will get rid of that. However, if there is any physical deterioration in the capacitor then cycling wil not reverse it. Furthermore, if it has changed, there is a small danger that you could cause it to explode. I have seen it happen a couple of times and it is quite impressive and rather messy!

Kim

btgc said:
tried to "reform" capacitor, hissing sound has become barely audible, though no READY light comes on yet. Will try harder.
Click to expand...
 
If the only thing wrong with it is the capacitor, it should be very simple to replace assuming you know what you are doing, and also being VERY careful - see my warning above! It's only 2 connections, should take about a minute with a soldering iron. It'll take longer for the iron to heat up than to complete the actual repair.
 
Getting the correct replacement with a high enough voltage rating may take the longest of all. 😉

Kim

iamzip said:
If the only thing wrong with it is the capacitor, it should be very simple to replace assuming you know what you are doing, and also being VERY careful - see my warning above! It's only 2 connections, should take about a minute with a soldering iron. It'll take longer for the iron to heat up than to complete the actual repair.
Click to expand...
 
Kim,

I just measured the battery stack in the BrAun F-270:

The assembled/wrapped stack is about 36mm in diamter and 29 to 30 mm in height.

The only markings in the assembly are:

" 500 DKZ DEAC " - on the "positive" side ( I presume, as it is completely insulated)

" 16 " - on the negative side (bare-metal, except where the shrink curls over the end).


The connector straps are about 3mm wide and about 30 mm long from the solder-joint to the "Free-end" of the strap.


The Hassleblad or Rollei site that seems to have the most info suggested that this is a 6-volt pack.


Let me know if you have a source for a replacement.

Thanks !


Luddite Frank
 
Thanks all for engagement ! remembering yet electrical schock from capacitor in P&S camera which I opened, I'll better give away this flashes to keep home clear and better tinker shutters - they don't harm. At the end I have two working flash units and will get working replacement if they'll fail - I don't rate my skills too high to be sure I will not get fried replacing capacitor. I want take some pics yet 🙂
 
I am having the same problem finding these coin cells for my Mecablitz model 106 with the battery stack of the 500 DKZ DEAC cells in it.Room is the major problem and it sure would be nice to find some duplicate cells to replace them with.
Mine has 4 cells in the stack.I am able to charge the capacitor with a six volt lantern battery to about 400 volts but have yet to get it to fire because I don't want to have to buy a new lantern battery 🙂)
The capacitor will hold the charge for quite a while and I am confidant that all else being equal that the flash should work otherwise.
I have the ability to measure the capacitor for capacitance and leakage at the rated voltage if I have to but I am confident that it will work in the circuit.
My plan is to remove the electrolytic and replace it with something newer which should be a smaller size with the current technology at the same values but I have not found anything satisfactory yet and use the room that I might have gained to store my batteries in.
I was able to contact Metz and although they could not recommend a source for the cells they did send me the service manual which included a schematic for it which is a big help even though it is written in German.
I realize that this is an old thread but am hoping that somebody found a solution for us.
I bought this flash unit in Germany in the early sixties to compliment my new Voigtlander Vito CL which I am still shooting with and would like to get the flash working as well.Ron G
 
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