JRobbins
Member
No, the motivation is not the same. This guy was asked to stop taking photographs first, and continued to do so.
Lawyer: Russian immigrant didn't mean to photograph Picatinny
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No, the motivation is not the same. This guy was asked to stop taking photographs first, and continued to do so.
Creagerj
Incidental Artist
My feeling is that just because something is a crime doesn't mean that it should be a crime. What is the difference between looking at the military base and taking a picture of it? Don't tell me that the military is foolish enough to place sensitive areas of their base within view from public property. This case is absurd.
JRobbins
Member
Because you can take pictures back to your commanding officer and use them to analyze weaknesses and create strategies. Do you think it's as effective to go back and describe the entire perimeter actually as you saw it? Are you really going to remember exactly where the trees where that might block a VBIED? I'm not saying that anyone would ever send a VBIED into Picatinny, but the point is that pictures freeze the image exactly as it is, much better than anyone could communicate through voice.
Sure they do - the entire perimeter of any base is "sensitive" in a manner of speaking; of course you won't see something classified, but you may see a bend in the fence, an animal ditch that someone could crawl through to get beneath the fence, or anything that could allow an intruder to get into the base uninvited. The photos allow you to take the information back to your buddies and piece together the best way to get in, whether it be just for the thrill or because you actually intend to harm someone or steal information.
V
varjag
Guest
OK, for you SoF and Eye Spy subscribers out here, have a look. Oh noes, terrorists now can have an aerial plan of the arsenal with car-sized level of detail! Shoot Google down quick!
Get real, you can't rely on obscurity in this day of age. And pathetic security measures like that are unlikely going to prevent future terror attacks.
Besides, terrorists now found out that targets that hurt most are not vaults, arsenals, nuclear plants and other "objects of national security". Blowing up a hospital, a subway station, an office building, or taking hostage a school full of children is what shatters societies, and also much easier to implement than attacking a remote territory full of trained, armed people.
Get real, you can't rely on obscurity in this day of age. And pathetic security measures like that are unlikely going to prevent future terror attacks.
Besides, terrorists now found out that targets that hurt most are not vaults, arsenals, nuclear plants and other "objects of national security". Blowing up a hospital, a subway station, an office building, or taking hostage a school full of children is what shatters societies, and also much easier to implement than attacking a remote territory full of trained, armed people.
Arvay
Obscurant
I wonder if it was a "any-other-country" immigrant would it be such seriously discussed here?
Of course ALL Russian immigrants (that means they are no Russian citizens any longer) use to walk around secret american military bases acompanied with specially dressed in terrorist way orthodox jewish priests to draw no attention to them.
And only sharp MPs can not see the difference mixing Moslems and Jews.
It's not a suprise as the US Commander-in-Chief often mixes Austria and Australia...
Of course ALL Russian immigrants (that means they are no Russian citizens any longer) use to walk around secret american military bases acompanied with specially dressed in terrorist way orthodox jewish priests to draw no attention to them.
And only sharp MPs can not see the difference mixing Moslems and Jews.
It's not a suprise as the US Commander-in-Chief often mixes Austria and Australia...
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JRobbins
Member
Sure, google has aerial photos; those are legal. That doesn't show you how you might be able to get into the base uninvited, and it doesn't show you what targets would be best to attack, or anything at all really except for where the locations of a few buildings are.
Regardless of whether or not that's true, it doesn't mean that this guy wasn't looking for a breach in Picatinny's perimeter. Guard told him it was unlawful, he kept doing it. Now he's getting charged for exactly what he did. It's that simple. If you're trying to say that the rule itself is stupid, see below.
Right. Because we have security measures to keep people from getting into the post uninvited.
It's not something to be relied on, but it helps. At the very least, in this case, this guy was already informed by the guards that he was not legally allowed to take pictures, yet he continued. That's just weird. Why would someone do that? Maybe he couldn't speak the language, maybe he didn't realize what he was doing, or maybe he was deliberately trying to gain information about the post perimeter so that he could cause harm, or give the information to someone else who could then cause harm. It's not like military bases are suddenly "not targets" just because it's easier to bomb a school.
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shimo-kitasnap
everything is temporary..
I thought we are allowed to photograph whatever we want as long as it is out in a public place. Was he inside a military base? That's really funny because I took a bunch of pictures of Yokota Air Force Base in Japan when I went there to play a football game when I was in high school. I was wandering around taking pics of various things, one of which was a fighter jet on display. Nobody arrested me.
Arvay
Obscurant
That's because you were not in a company of Russian immigrant for sure. Otherwise...😀
JRobbins
Member
shimo-kitasnap said:
Once again, and I've already said this before but I'll say it again, no one asked you to stop. This guy wasn't just randomly taking pictures, the guards already told him it was unlawful once before but he kept doing it. I feel like a broken record, I don't know how many times I've said this, and I still don't understand how this could be misunderstood.
Pitxu said:
This is the first time I've been to this forum. I noticed the thread on google while reading articles about the Picatinny incident.
Pitxu said:
Huh?
Arvay said:
Again, it doesn't matter what race he was, why are you so hung up on that? Maybe you've had different experiences than I have but if someone breaks the law, he breaks the law. They're not charging him for "being a terrorist." Sure there is plenty of racial profiling in this country but this is a pretty clear case of "you were told it was unlawful, but you kept doing it" and I don't see how race plays into that.
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Arvay
Obscurant
I am not hung up, but I'm Russian. Not immigrant. Maybe not yet as nobody knows all the life curves.
But few things show tendentiousness of the article itself :
1. I say that if immigrant lives in the US, he is not Russian immigrant. He is US (or any other country) citizen/going to become soon.
2. I asked whether any other immigrant will make such a noise or this is Russians' prerogative?
3. Don't you think its weird being "a Russian immigrant' to come to the military base to take pictures for the purpose of intelligence?
4. Do you really beleive all that crap being broadcasted and printed for the purpose of increasing the circulation?
All the questions are rhitorical of cource. I do not need answers. But probably a grown up person with wide view should ask these question himself immediately after reading such a newsbomb
PS I do not beleive that smth is prohibited untill I have a documentary confirmation. Otherwise I have to sit at home and look at the window how life goes by...
JRobbins
Member
Arvay said:
Ok, but here are some anyway.
Arvay said:
Nah, my wife is an immigrant and she is not planning to ever become a U.S. citizen. She is happy to stay a permanent resident so she can retain all of her other citizenships. In terms of the article, they probably defined the guy as Russian because people were asking whether he was Iraqi or Iranian, so it became important to specify for clarity (before reading the article I had heard that he was Iranian from two different people). Of course that's just a conjecture.
Arvay said:
Why wouldn't someone of another race make "such noise?" Someone tried to illegally photograph the perimeter of a military research and development facility. Again, why would race matter? I'm sure if it was an Iraqi or Iranian it would be a bigger deal, yes. But Russian? No, same as any other.
Arvay said:
I'm not sure what you mean by this. Again, what does being a Russian immigrant have to do with it?
Arvay said:
Circulation of what? All of what crap? I hadn't heard or read a single thing about this until my friend told me about it yesterday. Since then, the only articles I've read have been online and I can't even remember what websites I read them on.
S
Socke
Guest
Ah!
Ok, in case you haven't realised by now, this is a photography related forum.
I took lots of pictures in naval installations back in the 80s, even in naval ships.
Those who desire to give up freedom in order to gain security will not have, nor do they deserve, either one. President Thomas Jefferson 1743—1826 ...
cosmonot
uʍop ǝpısdn sı ǝʞ
Well just remember that we're talking about happenings within the great state of NJ, where it's still illegal to pump gas into your own car. That's a freedom we've already given up. 😱
Also consider another story that was recently the news, an hour or so south of the Arsenal.
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5hpU78Fwu6-swpC3MuWomEA9WYcCQD8VOLHS00
I gotta say that as a civilian that's spent some time working on a military base behind several guarded checkpoints, both the MP's and contractors providing base security were very professional. They usually are very understanding when it comes to people that don't "know" how to act on base, but generally don't give more than one warning.
S
Socke
Guest
Time to ban personal owned guns, isn't it?
Everybody would be much safer with stricter gun laws.
Al Patterson
Ferroequinologist
Just what I want, a world where only criminals and police own guns. I have a right to own a gun for MY protection. If you don;t that's too damn bad....
S
Socke
Guest
Lukily I have a right to own guns and take pictures 😉
Although I have to admit that some people are uneasy because of both of my rights.
cosmonot
uʍop ǝpısdn sı ǝʞ
Oh no! Did I just open that door? :bang:
Creagerj
Incidental Artist
Ya lets drop the gun thing. Its a whole other can of worms, plus it is unrelated.
Joe
Established
"Dogs bark at strangers"--Herakleitos
xayraa33
rangefinder user and fancier
hmmm... this guy is looking more suspicious.
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