leaving digital and going back to film

W

wblanchard

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My wife bought me a nikon d70 kit recently and I really tried to enjoy it, but it's just too much for me. I shot a wedding and had close to 300 images on my computer that I had to go in and post process each one with photoshop or another software. You can't just batch process everything and expect them all to turn out the same. Each image and situation is different.

So I'm pretty frustrated with Digital and plan to go back to my film cameras where I can load some Portra and not worry about the tones or how it will look, because it always seems to turn out nice.

Anyone in the same boat as me? Frustrated or turned off by digital? I plan on putting my D70 kit up for sale or trade this week.
 
I feel the same way. Digital is "fun" and comes in handy when I need an image immediately - usually for a local newsletter or family gathering. But I'm constantly amazed at the quality of images produced by today's film. Even consumer films can produce pleasing images when processed with care.

BTW, thanks to whomever posted the information about the availability of Kodak 400 UC Professional at Wal Mart. The price is good, but I wonder whether Kodak isn't dumping the film with an eye to dropping it completely.
 
my first real digital adventures...

my first real digital adventures...

hehh

Just 3 days ago i was asked by one of my "bosses" to take some pictures at the presentation of the one(and only?) dutch astronaut. (Yes i was feeling proud!)Of course, it was in a large auditorium, with slideshow, thus very dark - luckily with some spotlights on the speaker.
And, he wanted me to do it with the small digital olympus point and shoot of the research group. Well, it's one of the better ps cameras, with f/2.8 lens through the zoom range and full manual control (model "c-4000 zoom" i think).

I needed iso200. I hate on-camera flash so i didn't use it. It was not the first time i handled the camera, but i'm still not familiar with it.

I took stg like 30 shots from the first row, 5-7 meters distance.
I was positively surprised about the lack of motion blur. The only motion blur on some frames resulted from subject motion, not camera. OK, i rested my arms on the armchair when shooting. Shutter time was 1/8 to 1/15s. Lens always wide open.

A nice feature was the white balance, which I almost managed to set it correct with the sh|tty little LCD preview:) some minor color correction was needed later, on most of the frames.

The shots are ~2300x1700 pixels. Full-size they are uselessly noisy (for my taste). Reduced to 50% or less they are more than satisfactory (intended for some small printed publication of the university).

The highlights on the spotlit speaker were a tough job to keep within the reach of the sensor. The x-million segment matrix metering, of course, failed miserably; -1.3 to -2 exp. compensation did the job.

The multilevel menu system took me at least 30 minutes to figure out how to set things (i'm glad i've begun messing with it before the presentation). I hate it.

To keep it short, the "white balance" was the only practical advantage versus my el-cheapo yashica GSN (or CC or whatever) loaded with 400ish speed film.

I know, there's a learning curve to shoot good digital in low light too, that includes postprocessing.

Here's an example of the shots. Full frame, reduced to 800x600.
EDIT: sorry for the grayscaled version uploaded before:D here's the colour one.
 
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I work fulltime for a studio that uses digital only. I shoot the events and do the PS work. BTW, 300 shots for a wedding is not much at all. We shoot closer to 2000 for an entire day. You can imagine the editing... Of course, the PS work is only done on the pictures that will be in the albums.

I used to own a Canon 10D that I liked. I switched to digital 4 years ago and got used to it. The 10D was really nice but I found myself leaving it at home and not shooting at all on my own time because it was too big to carry around (40lbs bag with everything you might need). Also, it was too similar to what I use at work and I ended up shooting like I was on the job. Not fun!

Then, in May, my camera bag was stolen. Of course, it was not insured because the cost of a decent insurance (full risk professional, anywhere, no matter what happens, etc.) is about half the cost of the equipment. So I had to find a replacement that fit my budget without losing image quality. It was quickly clear that it would have to be a at least DSLR and the Rebel was not an option.

My conclusion was that film was the only logical choice for me. Once that was cleared, I remembered that I had always wanted a RF camera. I had seen a lot of stuff about Voigtländers on the web and thought I'd give it a try. So I went for a Bessa R2 with the Ultron 35/1.7 and got the Color Heliar 75/2.5 later this summer.

I fell in love with my R2 right away. I started enjoying shooting again. Not automated BS that's going to mess up your shot (because it always finds a way to do so). A more natural pace.

Then I got my first roll back. First reaction: what the hell have I been doing for 4 years with those digital cameras?! I had forgotten the quality of film and followed, like a sheep, the "digital is better" motto. But what I got from my R2 was way above anything I've seen from any DSLR I tried (10D, 1DS, 1D MKII, D100, D1X, D70).

Sure, DSLRs give a clean image. To me, it's lifeless and flat. Someone recently wrote here that it was a clinically perfect image. Since I'm not a lab rat, I don't like clinically perfect. Besides, I love grain. And even though my new pictures have grain, there is no comparison in the amount of detail and sharpness I get and what I see at work. Not to mention that I get consistent colors with film which is something I can only dream of in digital (we tried everything, believe me). It can be achieved in a fully controlled environment but forget it in action shooting.

I'm sure I'll get another digital camera someday. But it'll have to be a RF with M mount. I'm not losing those fine lenses! Full frame too. Fully manual and I don't care for a LCD, in fact, I'd rather have none. It'll also have to be as reliable and consistent from shot to shot as film.

I think I'll be shooting film for a while because it'll take a few more generations in digital to get to that level and I don't intend to pay to be a guiney pig anymore. I'll only buy a mature technology to replace the one I use now.

Till then, I'll be having fun on my days off and curse my way through the week at the office!
 
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Re: my first real digital adventures...

Re: my first real digital adventures...

Just imagine how sharp and crisp your images would of been using the GSN with high speed film and available light instead of digital. :)

On my Nikon D70, I had to shoot a similar situation. I had to switch my film speed to 1600, change the white balance from auto to incandesent, then use a Nikon 50mm 1.8 lens at 1.8 to get a decent shot. And I still ended up going into some software to make it look better!
 
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Yes, with say, fp4+ or, tri-x. However, to get proper colour shots, i would have needed blue correction filter which cuts off the light level with at least 2-3 stops... or tungsten balanced slide film which i never used... dunno. I prefer black and white film for low light shots; can't master colour(rare exceptions).
 
Pherdinand said:
Yes, with say, fp4+ or, tri-x. However, to get proper colour shots, i would have needed blue correction filter which cuts off the light level with at least 2-3 stops... or tungsten balanced slide film which i never used... dunno. I prefer black and white film for low light shots; can't master colour(rare exceptions).
I think you did a great job with the digital though. You did more then most people by bracing your camera for a good shot. Most people just point and click and get frustrated when things dont work in full auto. :D
 
Low light is hard enough with a DSLR, but with just a small-chip point-and-shoot--that shot is pretty darn good! Nice bracing there. :)
 
I hear ya.

I get some great shots with my digital, but it just doesn't "feel" like I'm actually working a camera (and my thumb still hunts for the film advance after every shot). I definitely agree with the assertion above that digital images can feel a little flat; even my best shots have always required slight touching up in Photoshop, mostly in the realm of color saturation, whereas with my film cameras I know that if I drop in a roll of Elitechrome 100, color saturation will be good, no worries. I also like the fact that I don't have to worry about carrying a zillion extra batteries with me or how many memory cards I have with me; this is especially true with my Trip 35 and its selenium meter.

However, there is one area in which my digital won't be replaced by my film cameras and that's macro photography. I've found that I produce more consistently good macro results using my Dimage 7i than my SLR, and of course rangefinders wouldn't be a great choice for this kind of work.

One last observation: it seems to me that the user interface for film cameras has been optimized over the years to make the photographer's life easier, while the user interfaces on digital cameras (I'm speaking of consumer/prosumer types here which is what I have experience with) seem to be designed by and for computer people rather than photographers who will actually use the bloody things to take pictures and yes, I am a computer person and do technical support for a living. I've seen up close how much damage a person can do with a poorly designed interface.... I'd rather manufacturers spent more effort on that aspect of things rather than adding better movie modes or other gee-whiz stuff I'll never use as a still photographer. Maybe I'm just a Luddite at heart.

Bottom line, I think I'll always shoot with both types of camera although these days I grab my film cameras more often than not.

Doug K.
 
I'm going to be the contrarian. You already know that I love film and RF's. But I also love digital. I divide my shooting mainly along the lines of B&W = Film and Col = Digital. I've been shooting digital for over two years and have taken, literally, thousands of images with digital. I have a Digital Rebel SLR with some excellent lenses and love it for colour, wildlife, and closeup work. To me it's just not an either/or or a them vs us kind of issue.

Here's a digital photo I took in my backyard yesterday. I don't claim any great artistry for it (it's a record shot of our serviceberry tree in autumn). I really like the choice of shooting both. Today my entire photo shoot was with Tri-X in my new Fed-2 :)
 
That is a superb photo, Pherdinand. Have you ever taken a bad picture? I think that it wouldn't make any difference if you were using a disposable camera, pin-hole, or whatever -- and of course that is why I hate you:D Seriously, that is a great shot. They were lucky to have you doing the honors.

I'm with Gene here regarding digital. I can not rule it out, but obviously my allegiance is to film (score in the household: 13 film to 1 digital). I caught this yesterday morning and I'm not sure I would have got the shot with any of my film cameras (excuse any shortcomings in the image -- I'm a PS rookie)
 
I started shooting digital in 1997. I bought my digital camera in early 1998 (Olympus D-600L). I was designing web sites and needed to take pictures for my web sites. Home film scanners weren't an option for me. The Olympus gave me digital images directly. About 3 years ago I needed to upgrade but I couldn't afford a professional or prosumer digital camera. At that time I bought an Epson 2450 scanner. I needed a flatbed and I thought it would be nice to be able to scan my 120 and 4x5 negatives. When I saw the results from scanning my 120 negatives, I resurrected my Mamiya Universal for the product photography I needed to do.

I still needed a small camera and have been wrestling with that for the past couple of years. I tried my Leica IIIc (given to me by my grandfather many years ago) but it needs new shutter curtains and a CLA that I can't afford. But shooting a couple of test rolls was a revelation. When I pressed on the shutter button it took a picture. No waiting for the autofocus to focus. And I made the decision on where to focus. I also had control over the exposure. I could put the f stop where I wanted it to be. Now I know that the newer digital cameras are much better. Response times are faster and you do have manual controls. Sort of.

That's where the user interface comes in. As a web designer, and formerly a document designer, I am very aware of user interfaces. Simply put, the user interfaces of digital cameras totally suck. What they call manual controls is a good example. Scrolling through menus is not a substitute for the controls found on a simple adjustable film camera -- adjusting the aperture and shutter speed by rotating simple dials. The digital camera that comes closest to this interface is the Bessa based Epson but $3000 is ridiculous.

Cost for image quality is another issue. I get a 9 megapixel scanned image from my 35mm negatives. I get a 38 megapixel scanned image from the 6x9cm negs taken with my Mamiya Universal. How much are cameras going to cost that will equal that? There is a Mamiya Universal on Ebay (get it if you've ever thought about medium format) with two 6x7 backs, a Polaroid back, and a ground glass back with a buy it now of $275. That's 1/100th the cost of a digital medium format camera.

I also can't affor to keep buying cameras. When I need a quick picture for a web page, I grab my ancient Olympus digital. But it will not take any cards above 8mb. I haven't looked real hard, but I haven't been able to find any of those for sale. When that last card dies my Olympus is dead. That is not even getting into the storage of images and being able to retrive them in 15 years. How many of you can read data on a 5 1/4" floppy? 15 years ago that was the standard. New computers can't even read 3 1/2" floppies. Don't assume that in 15 years your computer will be able to read a CD.

Now, to be honest, I'm semi-digital. I prefer using film to take the image but I scan the film and it's digital the rest of the way. So, for me, it's: Forward! Into the past! My $26 dollar FED 2 will give me 9 megapixel images.

More info on my journey back to film here if you check out the links.

I've written too much. Bye!
 
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i agree with gene and that may be the reason i have not plunged into digital at all.
i just prefer black & white to colour for my stuff.

maybe a digital point & shoot one of these days...

joe
 
I quite honestly have to take it "day by day" if I'm going to even pretend to be open minded about digital. A good friend is a working pro and a total convert to digital, and he has tried to woo me by letting me use his 11 or 12MP Canon whatever it's called. I mean, sure it's nice but then so are a lot of cameras.

I agree regarding the lack of manual control, and also regarding the definition of "manual" control. I'm fond of what I've come accustomed to, and after having seriously considered digital now I'm back to asking questions about good quality film scanners. I love my little rangefinders, and if higher quality negs are required I've got 6x6 gear and an assortment of Planars, Sonnars, Luminars, and Distagons to turn to. I doubt my friend's Canon would exceed the quality of those scanned negs...well, let me qualify that by saying if he took the pictures with each camera:D

I love film and the antiques I'm using to expose it with!

D2
 
While I agree with all the gripes regarding digital, I have to add that they pertain almost exclusively to the consumer level cameras. By that I mean the non-interchangable SLR or P&S cameras, even the so called high quality high megapixel count cameras still suffer shutter lag, auto focus delays, etc. None of them even come close to a high end digital SLR in its film like operation.

On the digital SLR's, the shutter lag is non-existent, or measured in the low milliseconds. You just can't feel it. Auto focus is very fast, but for purists, can be turned off and focused manually just as you would on a manual film camera. Same with auto exposure, turn it off if you don't want it. Heck, even use a hand held meter. Its just as manual as a Nikon FE, FM, F4, FA, F5, or any other manual film camera. In fact in the case of the Canon and Nikon digital SLRs, they are based on film camera bodies and use all the same lenses. If you where handed a high end DSLR and didn't see the LCD panel, you would swear you were using a traditional 35mm film camera. It feels exactly the same, and uses all the same knobs, aperture rings, etc, to change the settings.

Carrying batteries and CF cards are no worse than carrying extra film to me. I can get 16 rolls of film on a 2 CF cards with a single set of AA batteries. The 2 CF and a set of 4 AA's are less bulky and lighter than 16 rolls of film. Basically, I travel lighter and with less bulk when shooting digital.

I wouldn't shoot anything professional with any of the consumer digitals cameras, however I do shoot most of my professional work on the S2 Pro and D1x professional digital cameras. My clients want digital, and its produces the same results as film for their uses. If I need something very big (20x24 or larger), I shoot medium format or 4x5. But for anything 35mm, and up to 16x20, its mostly digital. Batch processing is very easy if one needs to. Photoshop CS has the ability, as do many of the browsers available.

But rarely do I find the need to do any post processing in Photoshop on my camera originals. And even then, its only on a few of the final selected images. Once the camera is setup properly, I get excellent results directly from the camera.
For some very high contrast situations, I'll resort to layering the image in Photoshop. But thats no different that what I would do when shooting E6.

And shooting digital is like shooting E6. Not as forgiving as a color or black and white negative film, since there is less dynamic range and you need to protect the highlights. The nice part is that you can reach down into the digital file and pull out the shadow detail that you'd never get back with an E6 film. But since I've shot mostly E6 for decades now, the transition to digital was uneventful once I figured out to just treat it as any other E6 film. If someone was new to E6 and digital, there would be a learning curve. Not big, but different. I would say that 85% of all my images are usable direct from the camera. (I love that S2 Pro sensor!)

In the end, I like film, and always have. Its where my roots are. But I also like digital. I had my feet firmly planted against digital for the longest time, but finally pulled them free when the newest digital SLR and high quality sensors came on the scene. It didn't help when I was exposed to a couple double blind tests comparing digital to film. It opened my eyes! I'd love to do the same test with Zeiss, Leica, and CV lenses! And the versatility of digital imaging allows me to expand my vision more than shooting on film. Or at least, its added many more options to my toolbox.

My clients demand digital, so I give it to them. But I use both film and digital for my own personal work depending on the situation. In the end, I really like them both, and neither have any real drawbacks to the whole process of creating images. (excluding the consumer digital cameras!). I find I can create the types of images I enjoy using either tool, with little restrictions placed on me by them, and the viewers are none the wiser as to which tools were used to create them.

Most of the limitations I currently find are when using a RF (sorry, I know its a RF forum and all...). I can't shoot macro, I have parallax to deal with, I have to focus manually even in action situations where AF is clearly head and shoulders better, long telephoto shots are excluded, and I can't see my mistakes till a week later when I get the film back :). But, its fun, and It's grabbed my attention, and my R2 is always close by whenever I leave the house. I almost bought a M6TTL today at a camera show. I was real close!

(edit: spelling errors I noticed while re-reading the post)
 
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As a purely digital user (!), I have to agree with Stephen. My first experiences with photography were from being handed a film P&S to take group pictures at family events. I hated taking pictures, being coached the whole time: "Don't press it down all the way! Hold the button down halfway until you hear it beep! Keep the camera steady as it preflashes a dozen times before firing the real flash!" Then getting prints back from the drug store and being chided for chopping people's heads off due to the parallax in those ridiculous tunnel viewfinders. Shutter lag in point-and-shoots is nothing new, and issues with consumer cameras is enough to sour anyone on photography, digital or not. :D

Then taking a black and white photography class at community college using a crappy, beat up SLR that didn't even have autofocus or a zoom lens. Yuck! But wait, it takes the picture when I press the buttom, focuses exactly where I had thought I'd focused, framed it exactly as I saw through the viewfinder... and the "crappy" lens made prints big enough to hang on my wall. Maybe photography wasn't so bad after all.

The clincher for me though was taking a month-long trip in Europe with just a digital P&S. Maybe as a young'un (born in the Carter administration and growing up in the 80's) I'd come to expect instant gratification, but after being able to sort through my pictures every night before going to sleep, I was hooked--on digital. And eventually, the Digital Rebel finally annihilated everything I hated about P&S cameras, film and digital.

I shoot a lot of street candids though, and an SLR, digital or not, just attracts too much attention. Rangefinder cameras, with their tiny lenses, are ideal. What I'd really like is a responsive digital Canonet with a large enough sensor to shoot at higher ISO's. What I'll probably wind up doing instead is to sell a kidney for an Epson R-D1. :D
 
DaShiv said:
As a purely digital user (!), I have to agree with Stephen. My first experiences with photography were from being handed a film P&S to take group pictures at family events. I hated taking pictures, being coached the whole time: "Don't press it down all the way! Hold the button down halfway until you hear it beep! Keep the camera steady as it preflashes a dozen times before firing the real flash!" Then getting prints back from the drug store and being chided for chopping people's heads off due to the parallax in those ridiculous tunnel viewfinders. Shutter lag in point-and-shoots is nothing new, and issues with consumer cameras is enough to sour anyone on photography, digital or not. :D

Then taking a black and white photography class at community college using a crappy, beat up SLR that didn't even have autofocus or a zoom lens. Yuck! But wait, it takes the picture when I press the buttom, focuses exactly where I had thought I'd focused, framed it exactly as I saw through the viewfinder... and the "crappy" lens made prints big enough to hang on my wall. Maybe photography wasn't so bad after all.

The clincher for me though was taking a month-long trip in Europe with just a digital P&S. Maybe as a young'un (born in the Carter administration and growing up in the 80's) I'd come to expect instant gratification, but after being able to sort through my pictures every night before going to sleep, I was hooked--on digital. And eventually, the Digital Rebel finally annihilated everything I hated about P&S cameras, film and digital.

I shoot a lot of street candids though, and an SLR, digital or not, just attracts too much attention. Rangefinder cameras, with their tiny lenses, are ideal. What I'd really like is a responsive digital Canonet with a large enough sensor to shoot at higher ISO's. What I'll probably wind up doing instead is to sell a kidney for an Epson R-D1. :D


Hi Bob,

Saw your photoessay on the Burning Man. Fantastic shots! As a documentary photography enthusiast myself I must say that you have great vision. What equipment did you use for those photos?

Regards,
Peter
 
I'm a mostly digital shooter, 5000 shots in 5 months with the DReb, 6000 shots in a year with the Canon A70 and about a 1000 in the past 2 years with film.

Most of the arguments against digitals here, are actually either against P&S's or SLR's, regardless of whether it's film or digital.

Unless your using a pro-lab or just lucky, correct colour balance with film is just a much of an issue. That's why I scan my own film.

Of course, use the best tool for the job, whether it's an RF or an SLR or a 4x5 field-camera.

It's great and very satisfying to have a choice. To pull out that $20- garage sale/ebay special and shoot and enjoy it. Getting that funny look from someone as they're trying to figure out how your RF works.

As for the D70... whatever works for you is what you should use. But I have to say, being able to walk in from a sunny day into a dark reception hall and switch from iso 100 to a very usable 1600 with a quick flick of a wheel is very hard to beat.
 
Thanks Peter! :)

My Burning Man pictures were taken with the Digital Rebel and Canon's 16-35/2.8, 24/1.4, and 70-200/4 lenses. Unfortunately fast primes like the 24/1.4 for SLRs are massive even on the petite Rebel (and fast zooms are worse, of course), and I feel a bit out of place with the SLR shooters since I don't really shoot sports, wildlife, weddings, landscapes, or studio shots. The rangefinder ethos makes more sense to me, and I was on the verge of picking up a Bessa when the R-D1 was unveiled at this year's PMA. After recovering from sticker shock, I think I'll be liquidating a good portion of my Canon lenses to test the rangefinder waters. We'll see how that goes. :)
 
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