Leaving Your Comfort Zone

35mmdelux said:
Bob,

You may want to read where HCB said that on various occasions he took unwanted shots AND ran, and at other times he was in a car and speeded off.

Integrity and ethics are valuable principles. That is why we're having this discussion, so that we can all learn.

Why the derision?
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Thanks 35mmdelux and I have read what HCB said some 60 -70 years ago. You cannot possibly make the point that what he did in the 30's 40's and 50's has not changed due to the political and cultural changes which have taken place during this time? My point is that there is a huge difference between an artisit and a paprattzi. That difference seems to lie in respect for the craft, respect for the subject and how one conducts oneself.

Again, let's go back to the original, specific scenario you posed in your initial post. Until now my responses have been aimed at that. I would not expand it to include all street shooting. In fact if you must shoot the 'beautiful woman" go ahead. But approaching a "beautiful woman" and telling her she is beautiful is creepy....sorry.

I see no derision unless you fall on the side of those who think the only thing that matters is what the want...ie the shot above all.

Best regards,

Bob
 
ferider said:
Thank you for your response. Obviously women have far more to be concerned about then men. I understand how any uninvited attention is suspect and usually creepy. You have no way of knowing how that image will ultimately be displayed or used.
For similar reasons I now make sure to exclude and children in a shot. I understand how parents are very wary about their children being photographed.
Thanks again for your input. Maybe you can teach some the HCB wanna bees some ethics.

How sad. What would HCB have said ?
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It is sad and I hate the fact that there are too many creeps out there taking pictures of women and children and using them in perverse ways. In the majority of his photographs people are used as another design element in a photograph. Maybe the they are the main focus but rarely the only element.

Best regards,

Bob
 
ErikFive said:
I would shoot from the hip if your are not extremely handsome and charming. I think that girls have a tendensy to freak out if you ask that question.
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Hmm... if that's the guideline, I'll be shooting from the feet...

Or you could say: Julia Roberts?? Yes?? Yes??(with foreign accent) and fire of a couple of shots. She will take it as a compliment and smile and you will get your shot.
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Haha, has anyone ever seen those Idiot Paparazzi videos on Youtube?

Back to the OP, having some photo business cards is probably a good idea. Perhaps even a good complement to the business card is to have a small portable portfolio put together so people don't think you're a complete nutjob/liar and you can show them your work. When I'm making prints, I usually make a smaller version of decent prints. It doesn't need to be too big or too fancy. Right now, I've got about ~20 photos (that I keep adding to) in a small 5x7 art portfolio that has decent range of the work I've done. The photos are large enough to get the point across and it fits inside the camera bag/pocket without getting in the way.
 
I often take pictures of women without asking, but seldom portraits, unless there are several elements in the frame which make it more than a portrait. Sometimes if I spot a subject approaching and have some idea of what's going to happen in the frame I'm interested in, then I select a distance and precise location of my vantage point first, wait for the subject to step to the exact spot, and press the shutter, all the while looking totally unconcerned and possibly critically scrutinizing some inconsequential object in a slightly orthogonal direction. Of course more often than not the precise spot is missed by the subject, or the frame I had in mind dissolves due to some unforeseen incident, in which case I don't press the shutter.
 
rpsawin said:
Thanks 35mmdelux and I have read what HCB said some 60 -70 years ago. You cannot possibly make the point that what he did in the 30's 40's and 50's has not changed due to the political and cultural changes which have taken place during this time? My point is that there is a huge difference between an artisit and a paprattzi. That difference seems to lie in respect for the craft, respect for the subject and how one conducts oneself.

Again, let's go back to the original, specific scenario you posed in your initial post. Until now my responses have been aimed at that. I would not expand it to include all street shooting. In fact if you must shoot the 'beautiful woman" go ahead. But approaching a "beautiful woman" and telling her she is beautiful is creepy....sorry.

I see no derision unless you fall on the side of those who think the only thing that matters is what the want...ie the shot above all.

Best regards,

Bob
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Bob,

I think we have a real difference of opinion.

You stated: "My point is that there is a huge difference between an artisit and a paprattzi. That difference seems to lie in respect for the craft, respect for the subject and how one conducts oneself."

Then plz say so. Consider not broad brushing everyone with the same assumptions.

Still, IMHO something is wrong in a society that believes that a man telling a woman she is beautiful is somehow wrong or creepy. This is beyond me, unless the photog is creepy to start with.

I think it has much more to do with how the message is delivered, tact, and the respect shown, and if you have the ability to sustain the message. It has lots to do with perception of the individual and their experience.

I think other sorts of relationships are creepy, but not one where a man admires a woman.

Just the same, I appreciate your input and will take your suggestion in consultation.

Thanks, Paul
 
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rpsawin said:
It is sad and I hate the fact that there are too many creeps out there taking pictures of women and children and using them in perverse ways. In the majority of his photographs people are used as another design element in a photograph. Maybe the they are the main focus but rarely the only element.

Best regards,

Bob
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It is not the nr. of creeps out there. Go to the cote d'Azur with a camera, and bare-breasted nudes will
not mind. Likely there are as many creeps here than there.

Sombody walks on the street, is sexually attracted to a beautiful woman he sees,
asks her for coffee or takes a photo, so what ? Does this make him a creep ?

And what do you mean by perverse ways ? What can you do in a "perverted way"
with the photo of a dressed woman ? If you had said, something damaging the
person being photographed I would agree, but perverse ?

It is a difference of sensitivities. Acknowledging those senstivities and culturing them
is only a step away from legal action against somebody taking your photograph on a public
street.

Let me give you another example: two woman see a guy on the street. They find him
funny and make jokes to each other about him. How is this different ?

Sincerely,

Roland.
 
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35mmdelux said:
Bob,

I think we have a real difference of opinion.

You stated: "My point is that there is a huge difference between an artisit and a paprattzi. That difference seems to lie in respect for the craft, respect for the subject and how one conducts oneself."

Then plz say so. Consider not broad brushing everyone with the same assumptions.

Still, IMHO something is wrong in a society that believes that a man telling a woman she is beautiful is somehow wrong or creepy. This is beyond me, unless the photog is creepy to start with.

I think it has much more to do with how the message is delivered, tact, and the respect shown, and if you have the ability to sustain the message. It has lots to do with perception of the individual and their experience.

I think other sorts of relationships are creepy, but not one where a man admires a woman.

Just the same, I appreciate your input and will take your suggestion in consultation.

Thanks, Paul
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Paul,

It was never my intention to paint with the same broad brush. If you took it that way please be assured that I don't have that attitude or hold that beleif. There certainly is a collective body of work, that probably best fits under "street shooting", that is wonderful and is done quite well. As beauty and art is in the eye of the beholder and which photo is art and which is not is another discussion (it's way too subjective...leave me out of that one).

Yes, we have differing opinions it seems and ultimatley one must conduct oneself in a manner that is in line with their personal integrity. I may not agree with or understand that person but I can respect him.

As an aside we here in the Seattle area had a well publicized problem with a guy who showed up at public, family-oriented events and took pictures of under aged girls. He then posted the pictures, along with his comments about these children, on his web site on which he made no bones about promoting pediphillia. I understand he has relocated to L.A. in the last few weeks and is doing the same thing there. While it has nothing to do with admiring a beautiful woman it does have a chilling effect on a stranger taking pictures.

Best of luck to you in your photograpy.

Bob
 
I've told many woman they were beautiful and sometimes that they were gorgeous. If that qualifies me as a creep, then I'm guilty as charged.

Best thing is when they smile back and tell me they appreciate the compilment. yeah, baby.
 
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rpsawin said:
Paul,

It was never my intention to paint with the same broad brush. If you took it that way please be assured that I don't have that attitude or hold that beleif. There certainly is a collective body of work, that probably best fits under "street shooting", that is wonderful and is done quite well. As beauty and art is in the eye of the beholder and which photo is art and which is not is another discussion (it's way too subjective...leave me out of that one).

Yes, we have differing opinions it seems and ultimatley one must conduct oneself in a manner that is in line with their personal integrity. I may not agree with or understand that person but I can respect him.

As an aside we here in the Seattle area had a well publicized problem with a guy who showed up at public, family-oriented events and took pictures of under aged girls. ....

Best of luck to you in your photography.

Bob
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I don't support intrusion into minors lives or the inappropriate taking of such images.


Thanks, Paul
 
MelanieC said:
I'm not sure there really is a way not to come across as creepy in this situation. The truth of the matter is that you aren't honestly interested in a photographic opportunity in the scenario you present -- in this case, you want to take a picture of the woman for essentially voyeuristic reasons (because you think she's attractive), not because it's a "decisive moment." Therefore, this scenario is inherently creepy and most women would probably read it as such. Even if you add a business card into the mix, if it were me, I would say no.

There's only one time I said yes to a request like this, and it was because I was at a photo show and both I and the guy who asked me had Leicas hanging off of our shoulders. Also, the guy wanted to take a photo that I thought was interesting -- I had a crocheted black top on, and he wanted to take a photo that included the back of my shoulder against a white wall and some of my profile. That sounded legit, so I said yes.

People have a legitimate reason to be wary of random strangers wanting to take their photos. I liked RML's response the best. If you don't have a real reason for taking a photo other than "she's hot" it'll be very difficult to justify the shot when you ask.
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so the moral of the story is to make up a convincing story featuring the local environment and her attire, and make sure it's an expensive camera. Got it.

FWIW, I don't think people have ANY legitimate reason to be wary of having their photo taken in public. Some people have unreasonable concerns with having their photo taken, no matter who's doing it. Some people don't care at all. If you're going to walk down the street, nobody needs to ask your permission to take a shot. The person that does ask is being respectful and giving absolutely no reason for suspicion. The only time I've been harangued for taking a photo is by someone who wasn't in a shot that wasn't even taken. Read: someone being unreasonable and aggressive at the sight of a camera. Those people exist and it's not my doing.

I've taken many photos of people without asking, and when they notice, I've found that a simple smile almost always gets one in return. I've also found that asking someone if they mind being in your shot so the place looks inhabited garners more acceptance than "You look hot, can I take a picture so it lasts longer?" Complimenting them on their appearance/outfit/demeanor after the shot is good manners.

I'd like to add that I refuse to treat everyone I meet like a convicted felon until they prove otherwise, and would appreciate being given the same courtesy.
 
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I think there have only been about three occasions where I asked a stranger if I could take a photo. The only person that declined was a big bearded taxi driver :)

However, this is mostly with men. The only time I asked a woman for a photo was last year in Paris. I was walking around with a Hasselblad in front of the fashion tents (?) on the day that fashion week started. I was concentrated looking into the waist-level-viewfinder and took a picture of a young women that was standing in front of the tent. Then, as I wind the camera I see in the viewfinder that she's walking straight towards me. I was expecting to be yelled at or something but all she asked was what kind of camera this was. After I explained it to her I obviously had to ask her for a portrait :)

The resulting picture was quite crappy, though. I missed the perfect moment and the exposure was way off. Oh well, what can you do.
 
Asking with or without words helps... along with a smile. The person being photographed often wants to know what will be done with the photo. Some are anxious that the photo will be published, and they will be presented in a negative light, so be ready with supportive words. And yes, having a biz card can be useful. mike
 
40oz said:
so the moral of the story is to make up a convincing story featuring the local environment and her attire, and make sure it's an expensive camera. Got it.
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Um, no, but if you want to start a fight that's entirely up to you.

FWIW, I don't think people have ANY legitimate reason to be wary of having their photo taken in public. Some people have unreasonable concerns with having their photo taken, no matter who's doing it. Some people don't care at all. If you're going to walk down the street, nobody needs to ask your pemission to take a shot.
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I didn't say they did. Legally, if they're in public, they're fair game. That doesn't change the fact that it can be disconcerting to be approached by strangers in this context. When the intention is inherently voyeuristic, it makes things even more disconcerting. You have the right to take photos of all the pretty women you like, as they have the right to be disconcerted. You might not think it's rational, but it's an honest reaction that you can either respect or not respect as you choose. It depends on how much it matters to you to get the shot, or how little it matters to you that you might be scaring someone.

I personally find it disconcerting to be talked to by strangers on the street in many contexts, and I definitely find it intrusive to be photographed in many contexts. (I've been stalked. That might be why.) I'm not saying no one is allowed to take my picture. I'm saying that a lot of the time it creeps me out when people I don't know take my picture. Some photographers might care about that.

I was recently in Morocco, and as a rule the people there do NOT want to be photographed. Every time I pulled out a camera on the street (see, I take street photos too sometimes), numerous people who thought they might end up in my shot would put their hands up, or shake their heads, or back away. I wouldn't have been breaking any laws, and didn't have any nefarious reasons for taking photos of strangers in Morocco, but these people had their own reasons for REALLY not wanting to be in my photos and so I respected their wishes for the most part. That means that there were a lot of photos I could have taken while I was there that I didn't get, but it was more important to me not to alienate the people around me than to get those shots. You might make different choices in those situations and I don't think either of us would be wrong.

For me photography is a hobby. I do it because I think it's fun and because I enjoy the photos that I took. I'm not some crusader for Photography, and I don't think any of the photos I take are going to change the world, so to me the most important thing is not always getting the shot. Others may feel differently.
 
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Honesty is the best policy.
Be prepared for the "Why" question. If the only reason you want to take a photo of the woman is that she is "hot," you'll simply have to fess up, being prepared for a high rejection rate. Once in a while someone will be flattered and will cooperate. Clearly, more often than not, you'll get turned down.
I am doing a series of portraits of strangers now, selecting subjects simply because they look interesting to me, often in hard to articulate ways.
My requests are often rejected, but being sincerely interested in the subject can have a surprisingly positive effect. So can simply conveying a level of comfort with your work that communicates the feeling that this is a perfectly natural thing to be doing.
Might seem easier said than done, but it gets a lot easier with practice.
 
Hi,

I'd introduce myself as a scout for playboy and invite her into my studio:D

Just kidding of course.
if I get away without asking I prefer that. If she still notice me smiling is the best way to react. I've learned that from Winogrand and Martin Parr.
Sometimes i just asked, especially when I want a portrait. For me a portrait needs interaction between the subject and me. So that can't be candid.
Act normally. Act as a photographer. Photographers take pictures so it's logic that you take pictures. Having a project helps to give reasons. But you can always say something like: I like the light on your face, you look so pretty today or something
like that.
A few examples:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/michiel-fokkema/498360103/in/set-72157600210088437/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/michiel-fokkema/496273756/in/set-72157600210088437/
http://michielfokkema.files.wordpress.com/2007/03/005-007-4-0002.jpg

Best regards,
Michiel Fokkema
 
Take the picture.

Then get a release.

A model release informs a subject that they've been photographed by someone with a name and address.

It may not be necessary in a public setting. However, people will recognize it as a courtesy and it gives them something to which they may consent or decline.
 
Melanie said: "I was recently in Morocco, and as a rule the people there do NOT want to be photographed."

We understand that many places in the Middle East and Northern Africa people are afraid of photgraphy for cultural and political reasons. Can we focus our examples on the free world please, such as the USA or Europe?

Hofrench said: "I am doing a series of portraits of strangers now, selecting subjects simply because they look interesting to me, often in hard to articulate ways."

I'm focusing on strangers too, which I've articulated to be attractive women. Others may prefer bag ladies or bums or mentally challenged (Diane Arbus).

Boy Scout said: ""Hi, you look really pretty! Could I take your picture?"

Sorry, this sounds like Jethro from Texas talking. Down here in La Jolla or the marina we're just a tad smoother.
 
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