Leica 35mm "goggled" Lens Issue

[Miles.]

Hi all,

A few months back I picked up a "goggled" Summaron 35mm f2.8 at my local camera store, and as someone who wears glasses, it was the first time I could comfortably shoot a 35mm lens on my M2 and M246 Monochrom. When mounted on a 0.69/0.72x body, it's akin to shooting a 35mm lens on a 0.58x body, or thereabouts.

Fast forward to last week, I felt the need to "upgrade" to the Summicron variant when a trusted dealer listed one in excellent condition. In testing, though, I discovered that the Summicron was not bringing up the 50mm frame lines as it should, and instead is only bringing up the 35mm framelines.

Were the Summaron having the same issues, I would think it were a sticky frameline issue on my bodies, but that's not that case.

Is this a common issue, or am I missing something painfully obvious?

I'll be reaching out to my dealer this week but wanted to know if other people have had similar issues and/or easily remedied the issue.

 

[Beemermark]

Originally early 35mm Summaron lenses on anything besides the M3 would only bring up the 50mm lines (since that was all that was available). Used to be able to buy early 35mm Summaron and file down the lens cam to make the 35mm lines appear on an M2 or M4. Your Summicron is newer and correctly brings up the 35mm lines.

 

[Miles.]

Originally early 35mm Summaron lenses on anything besides the M3 would only bring up the 50mm lines (since that was all that was available). Used to be able to buy early 35mm Summaron and file down the lens cam to make the 35mm lines appear on an M2 or M4. Your Summicron is newer and correctly brings up the 35mm lines.

I think you are referring to the earlier Summaron 35mm f3.5 (no goggles/eyes), which will actuate the 50mm framelines unless modified by DAG or similar.

I am referencing the line of goggled lenses.

 

[ddutchison2]

I had heard that these goggled 35s, being designed to work correctly with the 50mm frame lines, had to have 50mm focusing cams. People would sometimes unscrew the goggles from the lens for use on other M-mount bodies like CL's, Bessa's, ZMs etc, then file down the lug on the lens mount to bring up the 35mm lines. Unfortunately the 50mm focusing cam remained and the lens couldn't be accurately focused by rangefinder without the compensating goggles.

The M mount has 4 lugs. The one that brings up the frame lines is at 9 o'clock when looking at the back. on a 35mm lens is is noticibly shorter than on a 50mm lens, so comparing the mount to a 50 should tell you if this has happened.

This was in a discussion back in the Photo.net Leica forum about spotting M-mount 35s that had been degoggled and sold as the far rarer/costlier LTM versions. That forum seemed to be in agreement that the two ways of detecting this fake was the closer focussing distance on the goggled M version and the rangefinder's inability to focus it accurately without the compensating goggles.

 

[rulnacco]

Check the bit of the flange which selects the framelines. A goggled 35mm lens (I own the Summaron) should definitely bring up the 50mm framelines--unless someone has ground away a bit of the flange to bring up the 35mm framelines, as many people do with 40mm Summicrons or Minolta Rokkors so that they bring up the 35mm framelines instead of the 50mm framelines. (You can read a bit about the process here; the post above points out that the 35mm bit of the lug is shorter than on a 50mm.)

If someone has altered the flange, you could tape or otherwise secure the frame selector lever in the proper position when using the lens, but if it has been altered--which is irreversible, unless you can find a replacement part--it's really going to be a pain in the butt, I'd think.

 

[Miles.]

Okay, I took a look at the 9 o'clock lug/flange on the Summicron, and compared it closely with my Summaron, and noticed that the Summicron lug was ground down, making it a milimeter or two shorter than the Summaron.

I suppose I have my answer now but I am confused why someone would do this and keep it mounted on the goggles?

Looks like I'll be returning the lens.

 

[rulnacco]

Okay, I took a look at the 9 o'clock lug/flange on the Summicron, and compared it closely with my Summaron, and noticed that the Summicron lug was ground down, making it a milimeter or two shorter than the Summaron.

I suppose I have my answer now but I am confused why someone would do this and keep it mounted on the goggles?

Looks like I'll be returning the lens.

That is really mystifying--and likely the result of a poor decision by a previous owner. Even though it is possible to detach the goggles fairly easily--by removing some screws--the lenses certainly aren't designed to work without them. I'm thinking maybe someone wasn't aware of that, decided the goggles were awkward, then when they couldn't get the 35mm framelines after they took them off, they modified the lens thinking that would sort it out.

For whatever reason it was done, it's crippled a very nice and valuable lens in this case. It is still usable, but not without a kludge, unfortunately.

 

[Miles.]

That is really mystifying--and likely the result of a poor decision by a previous owner. Even though it is possible to detach the goggles fairly easily--by removing some screws--the lenses certainly aren't designed to work without them. I'm thinking maybe someone wasn't aware of that, decided the goggles were awkward, then when they couldn't get the 35mm framelines after they took them off, they modified the lens thinking that would sort it out.

For whatever reason it was done, it's crippled a very nice and valuable lens in this case. It is still usable, but not without a kludge, unfortunately.

I've thought about it some more and your hypothesis makes the most sense to me. Indeed it is very unfortunate.

Here's some photos that I put together for my dealer and for anyone on this forum who may find this issue in the future.

Below shows the lug/flange that actuates the framelines on an M. From this perspective you can't really tell that someone has ground down some metal (not much more than a millimeter or two) on the bottom edge of the lug/flange on the f2 Summicron.



Below shows the same lug/flange with one end on each matching perfectly, in length, and the opposite end showing the f2 lens is much shorter:

 

[ddutchison2]

...I suppose I have my answer now but I am confused why someone would do this and keep it mounted on the goggles?

Looks like I'll be returning the lens.

As rulnacco said, it was most likely ignorance. The previous owner probably thought the goggles were unnecessary on a M2/4/6/7, or they had some other M-mount camera like the Voigtlander Bessa that was incompatible with the goggles but had 35mm frame lines. When they decided to sell it (or realized their blunder), they "restored" the lens. Glad to hear you're returning it.

The 1st. gen., 8 element 35mm Summicron is a really beautiful lens, hope you find a good one soon

 

[rfaspen]

Sadly, people do dumb things. I bet this is a case of someone who convinced themselves that the [goggled] lens was supposed to bring up 35mm frame lines....it is a 35mm lens after all 😬. I'm perhaps mostly saddened that another lens has been "removed" from the population. ☹️
I do rather like my goggled summaron. My only summaron 35/2.8 and it's truly unique in regards to images. Absolutely wonderful!!! Just wonderful. (Although I've noticed mine has developed a little haze and needs to be cleaned 😮)

 

[TenEleven]

For me, if the lens is optically in fine condition, and the seller offers me an appropriately sufficient discount, (e.g. not just 100 bucks) I would consider "remodeling" the flange with JB-Weld or similar. Just gently paste on a couple of layers of it until the camera brings up the correct framelines again. (Of course let it dry between attempts.)

I mean it's not a part that gets a lot of mechanical stress or moves. (The bit in the camera moves) So it seems appropriate for such a fix.
Also the perhaps not super pretty fix would be "out of sight out of mind" 99% of the time with the lens being either in its rear cap or on a camera as it should be.

 

[KoNickon]

OK, so I have a 35 Summaron. How will it work when I mount it on an M2? I assume it'll bring up the 50mm framelines just as with the M3, correct?

 

[TenEleven]

It will bring up the 50 frame-lines and the overall finder magnification gets reduced further by the goggles to something like 0.55x or thereabouts so framing and rangefinder will be correct. This is of course useful if you are a glasses wearer, like the OP.

 

[KoNickon]

That's what I figured -- smaller magnification than with the M3 but still the framing is correct for the 35mm lens. Thanks for confirming.